Atlas listing (2 Viewers)

[davercox]

Dave,
I asked more or less the same question to the RO for Derbyshire and he went back to the guidelines which just say to extrapolate based on the numbers you counted in the TTVs. I agree that this can give a result which you know is wrong - so you could leave the estimate blank, and I would then add a roving record for your sighting outside the TTV. I guess that there will be loads of instances of this sort of thing and the combination of TTVs and roving records will between them lead to something approaching an accurate figure. I'm sure that's the theory anyway!

Thanks Simon.
In the end I asked Dawn Balmer, and this is (part of) her reply :

"I suggest you put in a Tetrad Population Estimate based on your experience of the numbers present on other visits over the winter."

 

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Dave
That makes sense. After all, it would be silly for me to put 0 by bullfinch if I saw none on the two TTVs when I know that several pairs are present.
Ken

 

[Tree Sparrow]

Thanks, Dave
That makes sense. After all, it would be silly for me to put 0 by bullfinch if I saw none on the two TTVs when I know that several pairs are present.
Ken

That would make a bit of a mockery of the TTVs that I have done then as, being new to this, I've tried very hard to only count the birds I've seen or heard on the actual count, not ones that I know are normally there. I had a very low species count (5) on a late winter visit a couple of weeks ago and I was praying for at least a buzzard or red grouse (both of which I always see there) to appear to up things a bit....but they didn't. It wouldn't seem right to me to add them on anyway.

Apologies if I haven't understood properly. I've actually found this atlas thread very useful.


TS

 

[joannec]

On the subject of estimates. I have been extremely reluctant to enter any at all, so much so that I haven't dared enter any for fear of getting it wrong which I almost certainly would. Any species that I know are in my tetrad but haven't seen or heard during a TTV I enter as roving records.

I had a dilemma last year when the tetrad I was doing was my 'home' tetrad. I had been, for some years, reporting large numbers of records to the Sussex OS. I queried quite early on with my RO whether I should be entering these many hundreds of records as RRs or continute to report them to the SOS and was l was told to continue to report them to the SOS in the usual way and they would eventually find themselves entered as roving records. So that is what I've done. Anyone else have any experience of this?

 

[Steve Lister]

As yet I know of no system for county society (like SOS) records being entered as roving records, but I have heard the possibility of a 'data exchange' mentioned.

It would be a very big task and prone to problems with duplication and ownership of records.

Steve

 

[joannec]

As yet I know of no system for county society (like SOS) records being entered as roving records, but I have heard the possibility of a 'data exchange' mentioned.

It would be a very big task and prone to problems with duplication and ownership of records.

Steve

Well I guess it must be part of the 'data exchange' you mention. I would have thought the problems of duplication could be got round. SOS have instructed atlas surveyors not to send the same records to them and those submitted as roving records but to do one or the other. Is 'ownership of records' really an issue? So what do other people who have been submitting records to their county societies for years do now that they are also doing atlas work?

 

[Surreybirder]

I have only submitted RRs (in most cases) where they add a new species to a tetrad for the Atlas. But I know that these records will be forwarded to the Surrey Bird Club in due course (as will all birdtrack records unless you have opted out). I was told by our RO that duplication of records was not something to worry about, so if you want to be sure you could submit them to both datasets.
I think that it's time that the Atlas team updated the FAQs if we are having these discussions you can bet that hundreds of other people must be wondering the same things.
Ken

 

[davercox]

That would make a bit of a mockery of the TTVs that I have done then as, being new to this, I've tried very hard to only count the birds I've seen or heard on the actual count, not ones that I know are normally there.

TS

No TS, you're quite right to count only the birds you actually see or hear.
But there is also the "estimate" column, which you can fill in after your Late Visit if you want to; and I guess what Dawn is saying is that this doesn't have to be based on the TTVs, it can also be based on other visits to the tetrad.

Mind you, that seems to conflict a bit with the guidelines given above (in Simon's post re Derbyshire) ...

 

[davercox]

(Ironically ,I'd think there is also a case for painting as bad a picture of the state of birds in the uk. If everything seems to be going very well, then what need for urgent conservation action anywhere if we have zillions of birds all over the place- ie a few more runways, housing estates etc won't matter as there are loads of birds anyway, and the loss of habitat won't matter. But that's just my opinion..... )

Of course, it could work the other way round.
If we record nothing at Minsmere then a golf course there would go down nicely "there's no birds there so it doesn't matter".

 

[Tree Sparrow]

No TS, you're quite right to count only the birds you actually see or hear.
But there is also the "estimate" column, which you can fill in after your Late Visit if you want to; and I guess what Dawn is saying is that this doesn't have to be based on the TTVs, it can also be based on other visits to the tetrad.

Mind you, that seems to conflict a bit with the guidelines given above (in Simon's post re Derbyshire) ...

Thanks for clarifying. I had misunderstood the context. I should have read more carefully before jumping in.

TS

 

[Surreybirder]

I did a casual walk through four tetrads a few miles from my home today. It was a 'country park' near Merstham, if that means anything. TQ25V, W, TQ35A, B.
It was pretty productive - a lot more so than my 'local patch'. I added 11 species to my year list (I haven't been out of Surrey so far in 2009).
Highlights included: little egret, rose-ringed parakeet, shelduck, barn owl, little owl, greylag geese, goldeneye, gadwall, teal, ruddy duck (well I like them!), pochard, little grebe, skylark... I didn't count the total no. of species but I certainly added several RR ticks.
The best bird for me was the barn owl as I've only ever seen one in Surrey before. I was actually looking for a little owl as some years ago I saw (on more than one occasion) a little owl roosting in a crack in an oak tree. I pointed my bins in the right direction and was really surprised to see a barn owl in exactly the same place. I was almost as surprised when, having phoned my wife to share this news, I then saw a little owl in the same tree!
A very satisfying morning in calm, sunny weather (at least 5deg C)!
Back home my wife spotted a circling sparrowhawk - another year tick!
Ken

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

I did a couple of tetrads today which were quite contrasting. One had over 150 Eider in, the other had 4 Buzzards, a Peregrine and several Tree Sparrows.

Had the gremlin again where I missed a species (Common Gull) and when I tried to add it was told it was already there, it wasn't. So again I added it as a roving record.

Stephen.

 

[simon1930]

To pick up on Surreybirder's mention of Little Owl, I've got the impression over the last few weeks that these cold, frosty or snowy mornings we're having encourage them to sit out a bit more openly than usual. On 1st Jan, which was a very frosty morning in Derbyshire, I had 4 in one tetrad sitting on stone walls and old stone barns. This weekend (7th and 8th Feb) I've had another 5 in 3 tetrads. Last winter, which was much milder, I saw far fewer. I guess perhaps they are forced out more in full daylight because their prey is less active at dusk as temperatures drop. I wonder if other folk have found Little Owls easier to see this winter?

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Did my two TTVs today in the snow, which seemed to have quite a striking effect on the distribution of birds as you might imagine. NJ90G in Kincorth, Aberdeen was pretty good, with 42 species. Most were along the River Dee, which was very busy, but it was quieter on Kincorth Hill. Nothing too unusual but the expected winter thrushes were dotted about. NJ90A is a rural tetrad just to the southwest and I only managed 21 species. Most of the activity was around a few feeders, with plenty of tits and finches. My favourite sighting of the day was of six Snipe, which flushed from a snow-covered field before coming down again along a small trickle of open water. They were almost the only birds I saw in any of the fields.

 

[Surreybirder]

To pick up on Surreybirder's mention of Little Owl, I've got the impression over the last few weeks that these cold, frosty or snowy mornings we're having encourage them to sit out a bit more openly than usual. On 1st Jan, which was a very frosty morning in Derbyshire, I had 4 in one tetrad sitting on stone walls and old stone barns. This weekend (7th and 8th Feb) I've had another 5 in 3 tetrads. Last winter, which was much milder, I saw far fewer. I guess perhaps they are forced out more in full daylight because their prey is less active at dusk as temperatures drop. I wonder if other folk have found Little Owls easier to see this winter?

I'm no expert but my view is that the LOs sit out in the sun in the early a.m. after a cold night - probably just to warm up a bit. You hardly ever see them in full daylight when it's dull, windy or raining. The other time I've seen them in broad daylight is when they've been feeding young. The 'snoring' noise the young birds make is quite far-carrying. They are fascinating birds to watch. I wrote an article about them for the owl website a few years ago. I have seen some unusual behaviour, such as one carrying a stick in full daylight. On another occasion I saw one have a go at a bat in the twighlight (it missed by a considerable margin!)

 

[joannec]

Nice to read all this talk about little owls. I rarely see them but I do hear them on my patch but it always seems to be in the late summer. My thinking is that they are young birds dispersing and looking for territory. They don't seem to be very common in mid Sussex.

 

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Joanne,
I think that there's an element of luck in seeing LOs, as with most owls. They seem to like rather park-like conditions with some good isolated mature oak trees with nest cavities. I don't know Sussex well, birdwise but I saw one near Horsham not so long ago.

 

[Stewart J.]

Yo Ken, LO habitats up here in Pennines the exact opposite with (remembering they are much scarcer up here) the 2 pairs I watch are in a Limestone Quarry and the other pair traditionally nesting in an old Lime kiln this in upland hill farm country in the shadow of Hadrians Wall.

They seem to leave the area from November till spring probably weather related (either that or they hibernate somewhere as I cannot find them!).

Stewart

 

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Stewart, even here in Surrey some pairs abandon their nest sites during the winter but from my limited experience they don't seem to travel very far - perhaps just to better feeding areas.
Ken

 

[Surreybirder]

Finally got round to doing one of my late winter TTVs today. It was much milder than last time! I did TQ34Z which is a nice rural area, mostly farmland but some small woods and the odd stream and pond. In all I saw 40 species. Some of the more interesting ones were: red-legged partridge, sparrowhawk, buzzard, peregrine, yellowhammer (singing), treecreeper, stock dove.
I only saw one wren, possibly a sign of nos. being down after the cold spell. But there were lots of other small passerines.
I hope to do my second TTV on Saturday, weather permitting.
Ken