BBC Twitching Documentary (2 Viewers)

[Lee Evans]

Dan, John and Mark - you have all emailed me privately in order to break down certain 'issues' we all have between us - and have explained the situation from your individual points of view - very much appreciated. I am the sort of person who is prepared to move on - hence why I offered Steve Webb an 'olive branch' at continued friendship despite his treachery - and yes, I bear no lasting grudges. But will this be the end of it - I fear not. I believe we should all act responsibly and fairly towards each other in this pastime and respect each other's views and not act selfishly on twitches.

My only interest in all of this is enjoying my birding and making sure that the permanent record is accurately assessed, be it on a national scale or a local one - hence why I email observers up and down the land whenever I pick up on a mistake or anomaly or get informed of one (eg, a recent case on Shetland thankfully satisfactorily resolved). To answer an earlier question, I do strangely get my salvation from ordinary birding - watching incoming Fieldfares and Redwings coming over Ivinghoe Hills can be surprisingly relaxing and watching the Goldfinches queing up on my Nyger seed, very entertaining and harmonising. It is only when I am on certain twitches that I become stressed because that is when I often have to put up with the crap that goes with my position - last week's American Bittern occurrence being a clear example. I don't see why we have to put up with the sort of behaviour that goes on and if I am present, I will make my thoughts known.

I somehow feel this programme has been done to death now and all I can see now is that it will disintegrate into a name-calling event and will end up in tears and certainly do none of us a favour. I do not really want to get dragged into any further simmering issues as has already been expressed in private emails, there is no gain only pain. Airing all of our dirty laundry on here will not solve any of the individual gripes. With this in mind, and if there are some of you who feel particularly denigrated, do not hesitate to email me on my personal email address at [email protected]

 

[John Hague]

Shame about the very poor footage of birds in the programme. I remember previous programmes (eg the 1984(?) Tony Ropey on Scilly) with some great clips. The ones on this programme looked like they were taken through a beer bottle.

Br, Mike

AFIK the only footage of the Wood Thrush on Scilly...

John

 

[username]

I must admit that this thread has left me feeling rather nauseous...far too flaming serious over what was a basically entertaining program...[in my opinion].
Having been twitching since the seventies...[first twitch sharp t sand in 73]...all i can say is that a lot of this 'sort o stuff' should be kept private.....[bit like the first rule of 'Fight Club']....

Most original 'tick-hunters' that i know wouldn't dream of getting involved in this sort o thing...[too busy birding to be bitching about on-line]...!

Having said that...this thread has been 'entertaining'...up to a point...:smoke:

 

[Zoot]

I somehow feel this programme has been done to death now and all I can see now is that it will disintegrate into a name-calling event and will end up in tears and certainly do none of us a favour.

Lee, I am no fan of yours but agree with you here.

Let's try and remember that birding is supposed to be fun and that we all share a common interest, albeit in different ways.

Blimey, see you at the American kestel!

 

[dbradnum]

Let's try and remember that birding is supposed to be fun and that we all share a common interest, albeit in different ways.

Exactly... I'll B to that

 

[Paskman]

Lee,

Probably not wise to put your email address on a public website.

Not a twitcher, haven't seen the programme yet - but looking forward to it having read this!!!!!!!

Paul

 

[Apodemus]

Lee,

Probably not wise to put your email address on a public website.

Depends on who and why. This one is no secret.

 

[Steve Webb]

Steve

''That website at http://www.webbsteve.freeserve.co.uk/ just tells the real situation of your cheating on year and life lists''.

That is your view and the view of one or two of your backers - namely Les Holliwell who knows full well why I relinquished our once happy relationship. You have absolutely no proof of what you claim and never have had any - it is just sour grapes and your resentment of me being the self-appointed adjudicator and judge - which is a fair and understandable point. You made frequent accusations of birds you claimed I had not seen - Great Spotted Cuckoo in County Wexford, Short-toed Treecreeper in Essex, in fact the list was endless and substance-less - and you quietly removed them one-by-one as you secretly (or was informed) of your mistakes. I for one know several birds that you have definitely NOT SEEN but you ticked them off on a Life List form I supplied you with (do you remember that Black Vulture - and certainly you have never seen African Royal Tern) but did you see me create a website highlighting your carelessness - NO. You invented 9,000 words of diatribe, designed the site and failed to remove it under a friendship agreement I decided to offer you with.

Once again, a thread has dissolved into what everyone yearns - total mayhem and all of Evans' dissenters and enemies all in one.

Do birders really want to know the truth about Britain's Top 50 birders - I don't think so - but I have all the evidence and one day, I may be so pushed over the edge that I spill the beans - and it will be far from pleasant.

Steve, your boring tirade against me has been well and truly aired over many years and your attempt to instigate an independent listing website stalled at just 18 entries. Stick with your support of Bubo Listing and perhaps then you will direct your vitriol at someone who claims to have seen more birds than you on there.

Up until now, I had been mistakenly under the impression that you had given up on attempting to undermine me, but that was short-lived - at your first opportunity, you had to pipe up. Why did you not feature in the film, you could have added much more than Les Holliwell? And you have the audacity to be as nice as pie to my face and to close associates of mine. How sad is this birding game?

And yes Steve, why do you only direct your criticisms at me, particularly when you have articulated that other leading listers are cheats.

We seem to be diversifying from the main subject of this thread - and if my memory serves me right, is there not already a thread about me already on this forum. I knew full well as soon as I rejoined Birdforum that this sort of defamatory banter would soon creep in - no wonder few birders worth their salt want to contribute.

Lee,

I would like things to be cordial between us, and I have been pleased that we have been able to talk again recently. I thought things were okay between us but in the original posting it was you who said I had reneged on the agreement to take down my website. That is not true. I told you on a number of occasions that I would like to remove my website if I could. I asked you to contact a certain expert in the field to see if they could remove it but you have never got back to me.

It is not “just sour grapes and your resentment of me being the self-appointed adjudicator and judge”. I most certainly would not want to do that role. The reason why I get so upset about the situation is that you are abusing your position of power by claiming number 1 year-list records that often belong to others.

Regarding my “backers” - there are many top listers who have observed your fabrications and I give examples on my website. The website that I had was as accurate as I could get it, and as you know is no longer maintained. There has not been an endless list of birds that I have quietly removed because you have seen them. The only bird that I have taken off the website that I am convinced you have seen was the Essex Short-toed Treecreeper.

My combined BOURC and IRBC list is the highest list of anyone to my knowledge and can be found on Bubo. Also my Birdwatch list is there so birders can clearly see what species I count. None of my British lists include Black Vulture or African Royal Tern. It would be nice to see other high listers put their list on there as well.

I have also have kept out of mentioning anything about you for a long time because I did not want further attacks on me. For example, when you contacted my work saying that I had created my website in company time using company resources with the expressed intention (to my wife) that I would lose my job. The company investigated your accusations and monitored my PC which showed you were telling lies as usual.

I enjoy a relatively quiet and peaceful family life and do not seek any further conflict.

Steve

 

[rockfowl]

Dan, John and Mark - you have all emailed me privately in order to break down certain 'issues' we all have between us - and have explained the situation from your individual points of view - very much appreciated. I am the sort of person who is prepared to move on - hence why I offered Steve Webb an 'olive branch' at continued friendship despite his treachery - and yes, I bear no lasting grudges. But will this be the end of it - I fear not. I believe we should all act responsibly and fairly towards each other in this pastime and respect each other's views and not act selfishly on twitches.

My only interest in all of this is enjoying my birding and making sure that the permanent record is accurately assessed, be it on a national scale or a local one - hence why I email observers up and down the land whenever I pick up on a mistake or anomaly or get informed of one (eg, a recent case on Shetland thankfully satisfactorily resolved). To answer an earlier question, I do strangely get my salvation from ordinary birding - watching incoming Fieldfares and Redwings coming over Ivinghoe Hills can be surprisingly relaxing and watching the Goldfinches queing up on my Nyger seed, very entertaining and harmonising. It is only when I am on certain twitches that I become stressed because that is when I often have to put up with the crap that goes with my position - last week's American Bittern occurrence being a clear example. I don't see why we have to put up with the sort of behaviour that goes on and if I am present, I will make my thoughts known.

I somehow feel this programme has been done to death now and all I can see now is that it will disintegrate into a name-calling event and will end up in tears and certainly do none of us a favour. I do not really want to get dragged into any further simmering issues as has already been expressed in private emails, there is no gain only pain. Airing all of our dirty laundry on here will not solve any of the individual gripes. With this in mind, and if there are some of you who feel particularly denigrated, do not hesitate to email me on my personal email address at [email protected]

Lee,

I think you have come across remarkably calm and answered very clearly, and with a typically sincere and enthusiastic approach on this thread, despite the usual roller coaster rubbish.

The British scene wouldn't be the same without you chap!

Regards :t:

 

[Amarillo]

I'm no twitcher and (hopefully) never will be, but I can understand the buzz of it and why it can get so addictive

BUT I simply cannot comprehend grown men arguing about whether or not someone else has seen a bird! Only each individual knows what they have seen and any "cheating" is simply cheating themselves.

 

[John Hague]

I'm no twitcher and (hopefully) never will be, but I can understand the buzz of it and why it can get so addictive

BUT I simply cannot comprehend grown men arguing about whether or not someone else has seen a bird! Only each individual knows what they have seen and any "cheating" is simply cheating themselves.

Well said - we don't need anyone to worry about our lists other than ourselves. The BBRC, BOU and IRBC do a great job - they won't please everyone but you are at liberty to follow UK400 or Birdwatch if you want (I'm slowly updating my Brirdwatch lists anyway). Sadly if people don't submit to the BBRC/IRBC or local organisations we can never have a true picture of records that have been thoroughly and rigorously assessed.

Mine are on BUBO though, as if anyone cares...

 

[rokermartin]

Lee,

I think you have come across remarkably calm and answered very clearly, and with a typically sincere and enthusiastic approach on this thread, despite the usual roller coaster rubbish.

The British scene wouldn't be the same without you chap!

Regards :t:

Who cares what Lee Evans and other so called experts say.Our hobby birding is about watching and enjoying birds. And it's up to the birders whether to tick a bird or not. They dont have all this carry with birders falling out with each in other countries.I think a good few uk birders should act there age instead of acting like spoilt children.Personally speaking people like Lee spoil the Britsh birding scene and it would be better without the likes of him and others.

 

[rockfowl]

Who cares what Lee Evans and other so called experts say.Our hobby birding is about watching and enjoying birds. And it's up to the birders whether to tick a bird or not.

Exactly. I was addressing his ability to remain calm on here in a perhaps 'under-fire' situation. You put yourself up, you have to be prepared to be shot down, 'celebrity brings that bol****s, but it should remain reasonably cordial, no?

They dont have all this carry with birders falling out with each in other countries.

I disagree, there was a good 'riot' in China, Fins and Taiwanese, and not a single Brit involved! I've noticed a few tensions rising on threads involving a minority across the Irish Sea, shit happens, it's human nature.

I think a good few uk birders should act there age instead of acting like spoilt children.

:t:

.Personally speaking people like Lee spoil the Britsh birding scene and it would be better without the likes of him and others.

Would it, does he cross your radar regularly in Sunderland then?

 

[Lee Evans]

Firstly, I commend Black Kite for having the decency to contact me directly and be so honest and inflammatory and to explain what actually happened during his visit to North Ronaldsay. It appears that there was a total misunderstanding and that the pilot was just out to make an extra amount of money in as short as time as possible, so I apologise for implicating him in the commandeering of another group's chartered aircraft - that was simply not the case.

Secondly, I listen to Steve Webb and just as an aside, I have his UK400 Club Submission Form at my side. Both Black Vulture and American Marsh Hawk are life-ticked - presumably both mistakes, but I accept that he has now seen the Tacumshin bird - and I heard via others that African Royal Tern had been claimed at one point.

Anyway, I digress, Steve, despite your continued claims, you do not have one iota of proof that I have not seen the species of bird, be it Year or Life, that I do not claim that I have and your irritation of making such nonsensical repeated claims continues to annoy me. What would be the point of the so-called self-appointed Keeper of lists cheating on a game that he holds so highly in esteem himself? Why would I leave myself so wide open to such ridicule? I pride myself on my management of the lists and for the jurisdiction I have over them. I accumulate massive Year Lists due to my total obsession with Rare Birds (for example I have seen 14 Yellow-browed Warblers this autumn, not just one, and many duplicates of other individual species) and for my total obsession in wanting to check everything out for myself. I don't need to cheat nor would I have the inclination to do so - am I going to dish myself out with a UK400 Club certificate? If the guy that is managing the lists is cheating then what is the whole point of it - it is absurd. And as you know fully well, I see what I see - and if I miss out, I pick myself up and move on to the next one. The list of rare birds I have missed are second-to-none - only recently I missed the two Ross's Snow Geese at Aberlady Bay - that's life. If I really wanted to cheat I could easily do it, but how on earth would I benefit. There are no prizes for winning a Year-List competition. It doesn't bring you any extra kudos, certainly not me, but I just love it because I see so many birds, see so many people and birders I know and experience so many great things and places. It is just a way of life for me and I find it difficult to grow out of it, having done it all of my adult life.

By default, I see huge numbers of birds in my annual pursuit - comes with the job - and yes, I do keep very close tabs on those participating in the annual Yearlists, not only national but at a local level. This is so I can keep an accurate account of proceedings. We all know I have had public displays of annoyance with some participants (Adrian Riley was perhaps the worst example, a character who only succeeded in seeing 355 of his claimed 380 species) and he went on to publish a book about those disagreements so it wasn't too bad an outcome for him.

Frustratingly, due to the sheer number of birds I see, I can never keep my Diary Notes up-to-date and by the time it starts getting busy in spring, I soon drop miles and miles behind and I believe it is this lack of transparent publication of my sightings that provides you with most concern. It is all about time - and I have little of it (in fact, nothing has annoyed me more than having to waste nearly three good days of birding time to address all of this banter)

I have been inundated with sensible advice from all quarters to simply stay quiet and keep away from this forum - as it certainly seems that I am on a hiding to nothing. Steve Webb's continued comments have cemented that ideal.

 

[rokermartin]

Exactly. I was addressing his ability to remain calm on here in a perhaps 'under-fire' situation. You put yourself up, you have to be prepared to be shot down, 'celebrity brings that bol****s, but it should remain reasonably cordial, no?



I disagree, there was a good 'riot' in China, Fins and Taiwanese, and not a single Brit involved! I've noticed a few tensions rising on threads involving a minority across the Irish Sea, shit happens, it's human nature.



:t:



Would it, does he cross your radar regularly in Sunderland then?

Seen Lee a couple of times in my area RF Bluetail, Marsden Quarry,EC Warbler at Trow Quarry also seen him many times over the years elsewhere.

 

[Lee Evans]

''I have also have kept out of mentioning anything about you for a long time because I did not want further attacks on me. For example, when you contacted my work saying that I had created my website in company time using company resources with the expressed intention (to my wife) that I would lose my job. The company investigated your accusations and monitored my PC which showed you were telling lies as usual''.

Steve, I did not only phone and talk to your seniors but I also visited your workplace and sat with the lady responsible for such matters of concern and we actively got your website up and went through it together. She felt that you were one sad individual with one serious problem but felt that, if it had been proven to have been updated in your own time, that nothing could be done about it. I then approached both the Surrey Police and my local Amersham branch and they pondered what activity to take - again stating that there was little I could do about it unless I took out a private libel prosecution which would probably cost in the region of £5,000. They recommended lawyers but they wanted £55 per hour so I said what the hell and ended up taking matters into my own hands and very foolishly decided that it was best to get physical with you. You had dragged me down that low with the sentiments expressed on your libellous website. Despite you bearing an illegal stun-gun to ward me off, I still came off the worst for the attack and ended up in hot water with the authorities and the Police. I pleaded with them to do something about it but they felt that their hands were tied and despite providing them with evidence of how you had affected my business and mindset and behaviour, they left the situation in limbo.

At the Cornish Alder Flycatcher, you did acknowledge that you would cease updating the site and offered some help in me tracing an expert to get rid of it. But it is your website, you constructed it, you updated it, you are the IT expert, surely it is YOUR responsiblity to remove it. Why should I have to pay some IT expert to remove 9,000 words of drivel about me?

 

[Stoggler]

Considering that words like "incompetent" are being bandied about, I find it strange that someone who "polices" others and who puts his own lists up for all to see cannot keep his own records accurate and up-to-date! Surely if you're expecting the best standards in others, you need to lead by example.

Otherwise, it seems to an outsider that it's do as I say, not as I do.

 

[POP]

I am amazed that so many have not seen what this programme was about ,it was a complete mickey take and those taking part held up to total ridicule.Having known of Lee since the 70s,it must be said he is an excellent birder who on occasions has some rather "quirky" ways. Live and let live,life is to short.

POP

 

[The sniper]

******* grow up lads,it's a hobby,you are all taking it too far and making average birders like myself actually wonder if this hobby is all it's cracked up to be

 

[rokermartin]

******* grow up lads,it's a hobby,you are all taking it too far and making average birders like myself actually wonder if this hobby is all it's cracked up to be

Well i keep saying that it's just a hobby.