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Bean Goose group (1 Viewer)

Masaki Eda, Tetsuo Shimada, Chitoshi Mizota and Hiroko Koike (2011) The identification of Bean Goose Anser fabalis subspecies wintering in Japan, based on studies of the mitochondrial DNA control region: a preliminary study . Jpn. J. Ornithol. 60: 100-104.
Abstract
 
Bean Goose etc

Liu, Zhou, Zhang, Luo & Xu 2013. The complete mitochondrial genome of Bean goose (Anser fabalis) and implications for Anseriformes taxonomy. PLoS ONE 8(5): e63334. [article] [pdf]

Suggests recognition of tribe Somaterini for Somateria (included in Mergini by H&M4). But (eg) Polysticta and Clangula were not sampled...

Btw 1. I was surprised to see that OSJ 2012 (Check-list of Japanese Birds, 7th edition) recognises curtus as a valid subspecies:
Anser fabalis curtus Lönnberg, 1923
Range: Rare and breeding range little known; breeds probably from Novaya Zemla to the Taimyr Peninsula. Winter range also poorly known.
Status: Honshu (AV: Niigata, Mar. 2003), Ogasawara Is. (AV: Mukojima I.).
I wonder how the Japanese records were definitively identified?

Btw 2: H&M4 continues to recognise johanseni as a valid subspecies.
[Also of interest in H&M4, Anser cygnoid: "Correct original spelling. No conclusive internal evidence permitting emendation." Mayr & Cottrell 1979 (Peters).]

Btw 3. The Salton Sea 2010 'bean-goose' record has been giving CBRC a slight headache: CBRC Annual Meeting Minutes 18-19 January 2013 (p3–4). If only AOU hadn't adopted a split...
 
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Yes. If accepted, we can finally drop "Taiga/Tundra Bean-Goose" from the State List. :)

BTW the latest CBRC annual report is now available online. It has a complete summary of the earlier California Bean-Goose record.
 
Given that this is in contradiction to IOC's treatment, does IOC have any plans to revise their treatment? What is IOC's basis for splitting serrirostris/rossicus from fabalis?

I think it would be fairer to say that the IOC treatment is out of date. It's presumably based on Sangster & Oreel's 1996 paper in Dutch Birding, in which rossicus/serrirostris and fabalis are regarded as separate species, based on experience in Europe, with some quite strong arguments as to why that treatment is appropriate.

Then along came Ruokenen et all 2008 with their DNA-based findings on middendorffii, suggesting that this form is actually a more basal lineage within the Bean Goose tree than rossicus/serrirostris/fabalis. Unfortunately, even though their data do not contradict Sangster & Oreel's earlier conclusions about the rossicus/serrirostris - fabalis split, they left rossicus/serrirostris and fabalis lumped.

The most sensible arrangement, assuming there aren't some problems with the Ruokenen data which I'm not aware of, seems to be three Bean Goose species (or four if you treat Pink-footed Goose as part of the Bean Goose complex). Having just re-read Ruokenen's 2008 paper, I can't find any strong evidence in it which suggests this only middendorffii should be split, and the remaining taxa left lumped. If I'm missing something, please can someone point out what that is?

As Richard says above, IOC had middendorffii listed as a potential split. It would be interesting to know why this wasn't adopted, as it would seem to have neatly solved the problems with this group.
 
Having just re-read Ruokenen's 2008 paper, I can't find any strong evidence in it which suggests this only middendorffii should be split, and the remaining taxa left lumped. If I'm missing something, please can someone point out what that is?
It's clearer in their 2011 update paper, where they explicitly use Anser brachyrhynchus (monotypic), A. middendorffii (monotypic), and A. fabalis (including subspp. fabalis, rossicus and serrirostris).
 
It's clearer in their 2011 update paper, where they explicitly use Anser brachyrhynchus (monotypic), A. middendorffii (monotypic), and A. fabalis (including subspp. fabalis, rossicus and serrirostris).

I think you misunderstood my comment. I understand the arrangement that the 2008 paper recommends. What I'm not seeing is any strong evidence that justifies ignoring Sangster & Oreel's findings on the split Tundra/Taiga split.
 
Ooops!

Though in their 2011 paper, Fig. 1, one of their serrirostris samples is closer to fabalis than to the other serrirostris samples, and another sister to all three, suggesting that serrirostris is paraphyletic with respect to fabalis and rossicus. That would be a good reason for justifying conspecifity.
 
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Ooops!

Though in their 2011 paper, Fig. 1, one of their serrirostris samples is closer to fabalis than to the other serrirostris samples, and another sister to all three, suggesting that serrirostris is paraphyletic with respect to fabalis and rossicus. That would be a good reason for justifying conspecifity.

Yes I saw that - this is the haplotype tree and haplotype data does feature in a different format in the earlier paper. In neither paper are the percentage probabilities of the nodes in the rossicus/serrirostris/fabailis part of the tree given, and in fact in the 2011 paper, it explicitly states that these are only given where they're greater than 50%, so almost all of the probabilities in this part of the tree can be taken to be <50% i.e. a fairly flaky tree. At least that's my understanding - I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding of the statistics surrounding branching support for these kinds of tree isn't sophisticated enough to understand what they're are saying.

The mtDNA tree in the 2008 paper, on the other hand, gives 99% probability for the split between fabalis and rossicus/serrirostris (more than the 97% for Pink-footed vs all the Beans). So if I had to weigh up the totality of the genetic evidence, I'd say on balance it favours (though doesn't conclusively prove) reciprocal monophyly between Taiga & Tundra breeders.

But ... if you add this to the Sangster & Oreel data on morphology, lack of intermediates, reproductive isolation, ecology, diel activity patterns, differences in wintering and breeding ranges (I'm doing this from memory so there's no doubt more stuff that I've forgotten) you've got a weighty case for a Taiga/Tundra split.

If Ruokonen et al had come up with some evidence which cast doubt on Sangster & Oreel's findings in all (or even some of) those other areas, then I think their argument would deserve a bit more credit. But they appear to be saying "because not all of our molecular data gives a clear-cut picture for a split, these taxa MUST be conspecific".

It's generally accepted that genetic data shouldn't be used in isolation (as gene trees aren't necessarily taxa trees), so they're on dodgy ground there to start with. And, as I argued in my letter in BB earlier in the year, in the light of evidence that the mid-20th Century lumping spree (which is where the bean lump originated) generated vast numbers of lumps-in-error, to refuse to split on the grounds that one strand of evidence doesn't support a conclusion to split when all other lines of evidence do, is - I can't remember exactly how I phrased it in BB but as this is Birdforum - bonkers). Loaded dice and all that.
 
Yes I saw that - this is the haplotype tree and haplotype data does feature in a different format in the earlier paper. In neither paper are the percentage probabilities of the nodes in the rossicus/serrirostris/fabailis part of the tree given, and in fact in the 2011 paper, it explicitly states that these are only given where they're greater than 50%, so almost all of the probabilities in this part of the tree can be taken to be <50% i.e. a fairly flaky tree. At least that's my understanding - I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding of the statistics surrounding branching support for these kinds of tree isn't sophisticated enough to understand what they're are saying.

The mtDNA tree in the 2008 paper, on the other hand, gives 99% probability for the split between fabalis and rossicus/serrirostris (more than the 97% for Pink-footed vs all the Beans). So if I had to weigh up the totality of the genetic evidence, I'd say on balance it favours (though doesn't conclusively prove) reciprocal monophyly between Taiga & Tundra breeders.
"Because some of the museum samples were more than 100 years old, a 221 base pairs (bp) fragment of the mtDNA control region was sequenced only" (Ruokonen & Aarvark 2011: 104). In the 2008 paper, they used sequences of 1164 bp. Shorter sequences = less data = weaker tree reconstruction. The purpose of the 2011 paper was not to provide a strongly supported tree, but rather to see where old type specimens would fall within the complex.

You don't seem to interpret the supports correctly, though. The numbers above a branch are associated to the existence of a group unifying all the sequences that are part of this branch. Thus 99% is the Bayesian support for grouping together fabalis, rossicus and serrirostris in a single taxon, not the support "for a split between fabalis and rossicus/serrirostris" (and 97% is the support for the existence of a broad "bean goose complex" including the pink-footed goose). If you want to assess the "support for a split", you have to look at the support that the two split sub-branches receive: here, a separated fabalis receives 100/88, which is reasonably good; a separated serrirostris+rossicus receives 83/-, which frankly is quite poor.
 
"Because some of the museum samples were more than 100 years old, a 221 base pairs (bp) fragment of the mtDNA control region was sequenced only" (Ruokonen & Aarvark 2011: 104). In the 2008 paper, they used sequences of 1164 bp. Shorter sequences = less data = weaker tree reconstruction. The purpose of the 2011 paper was not to provide a strongly supported tree, but rather to see where old type specimens would fall within the complex.

Thanks for that Laurent. We agree that Fig 2 in the 2008 paper is the best available tree, then - that's good.

You don't seem to interpret the supports correctly, though. The numbers above a branch are associated to the existence of a group unifying all the sequences that are part of this branch. Thus 99% is the Bayesian support for grouping together fabalis, rossicus and serrirostris in a single taxon, not the support "for a split between fabalis and rossicus/serrirostris" (and 97% is the support for the existence of a broad "bean goose complex" including the pink-footed goose). If you want to assess the "support for a split", you have to look at the support that the two split sub-branches receive: here, a separated fabalis receives 100/88, which is reasonably good; a separated serrirostris+rossicus receives 83/-, which frankly is quite poor.

(My turn for an) Oops! That'll teach me to look at these things late at night. What I think you're saying then is that there's good evidence for monophyly of fabalis, but that there isn't strong enough evidence that there is reciprocal monophyly with the rossicus/serrirostris group.

I now understand Ruokonen et al's caution better ... but am now even more convinced that they've been overcautious, as they're using lack of evidence of recicprocal monophyly as their sole justification for keeping the lump, rather than any positive evidence that this split would be wrong. Weigh this up against all the other evidence in support of a split - the data summarised in Sangster & Oreel, and just about everything else in Ruokonen et al 2008 except this (lack of) evidence on monophyly of rossicus/serrirostris, and you've got at least as well-supported a case for a split as you have with many of the other splits that have been proposed and widely accepted in the last decade or two (large white-headed gulls, Sylvia warblers, House/Striolated Bunting etc etc). We can't expect perfect alignment of every strand of evidence, but when the vast majority of strands align, it's surely wrong to refuse to change.
 
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