Better understanding the Leica range for a second-hand purchase (1 Viewer)

[jb b]

I would appreciate your help with a Leica purchase, possibly second-hand (I am also considering a second-hand Swarovski ATS HD 65 mm).
This will be my first scope. I had already mentioned on the forum the purchase of a Swarovski ATC 17-40 x56 refractor. I was disappointed with the maximum magnification, which wasn't very bright. Which is to be expected (it's physics) ! I sent it back anyway. My binoculars are Canon 10x30 IS.

I'm looking at second-hand ones. I'd like to understand the Leica range better. At the moment, I think there are two models: the Leica APO Televid 65 and 82. In what year did this range appear?

Before that there was the APO Televid 62 and 77 range, is that correct?

I wonder if this old range is still worth buying second-hand. These scopes appeared more than 20 years ago (?), is it still a good idea?
Are fixed eyepieces a good idea (the x32w for example)?
Can a current zoom eyepiece such as the 25-50 be adapted to an old Televid 77 model?
Is there a significant difference between a Televid 77 and a current Televid 85? Is the field of view the same?

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences.

 

[dwatsonbirder]

I would appreciate your help with a Leica purchase, possibly second-hand (I am also considering a second-hand Swarovski ATS HD 65 mm).
This will be my first scope. I had already mentioned on the forum the purchase of a Swarovski ATC 17-40 x56 refractor. I was disappointed with the maximum magnification, which wasn't very bright. Which is to be expected (it's physics) ! I sent it back anyway. My binoculars are Canon 10x30 IS.

I'm looking at second-hand ones. I'd like to understand the Leica range better. At the moment, I think there are two models: the Leica APO Televid 65 and 82. In what year did this range appear?

Before that there was the APO Televid 62 and 77 range, is that correct?

I wonder if this old range is still worth buying second-hand. These scopes appeared more than 20 years ago (?), is it still a good idea?
Are fixed eyepieces a good idea (the x32w for example)?
Can a current zoom eyepiece such as the 25-50 be adapted to an old Televid 77 model?
Is there a significant difference between a Televid 77 and a current Televid 85? Is the field of view the same?

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences.

Hi JBB,

Whilst you wait for a more in depth response, here are my thoughts (having owned both the APO77, APO62 and ATS 65HD). For reference, I use an ATM80 HD with the 25-50x eyepiece.

The APO 77 is the oldest design of the three, still a competent performer, but optically not up to the same level as the APO 82 particularly when used with the zoom (narrower FOV, heavier, longer, less bright). When combined with the 32x, the scope gives a beautiful, easy view, with highly saturated colours - it is a joy to use.

The APO 62 is something of a sweet spot, although an older model, it is a great performer for its size, particularly with the 26x wide. The zoom also works well (better than with the larger scope to my eye). It can be had at a significant discount against the 65mm Swarovski, I believe this is due to the lack of warranty, though good examples can be found for £500 - £700, against £1000+ for the Swarovski.

All three will offer good performance, not too far behind the very latest, with the 65 Swaro probably being the best overall package (though I must admit I preferred the APO 62).

The fixed focal length eyepieces are probably the best option on the older Leica models, giving a wide and sharp image. The zoom is a bit narrow, and dull above 40x. It is not possible to adapt the newer style 25-50 zoom for the older Televid models, and the fixed mag eyepieces do not work with the current 65/82 Televid series.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rotherbirder]

What Daniel said! If you can find a good example, the APO 77 will satisfy but is a little heavy to lug around. Also be aware that some of these scopes had problems with flaking coatings on the objective which I understand didn't affect the APO 62. Other potential problems are the lack of availability of eyepieces - and customer care from Leica if something goes wrong.

RB

 

[jb b]

Thank you very much dwatsonbirder and Rotherbirder for your feedback. I've learned a lot from them, and they've made me cautious.
I'm thinking of buying an APO Televid 77 spotting scope with a x32w eyepiece. You've confirmed dwatsonbirder that this is a very good configuration. I know that for me, x32 is just right, it's good to go to x50 sometimes. So it's impossible with a current 25-50. That means you have to go for 20-60, with the limitations you describe (notably the field of view). In my opinion, that's a lot of compromise for a 25-year-old scope, and a fairly expensive one at that. The weight criterion was also a negative for this Televid 77. So I'm going to give up.

The problem of chipped lenses (thank you Rotherbirder) is not to be taken lightly either, as it must be complicated to rely on customer service for a 25 year old refractor.

For the Leica APO 62, I'm afraid that the x20-60 zoom isn't very bright. You've had good experience of it dwatsonbirder.

I'm afraid I'll have to abandon the Leica route for the occasion and go for the Swarovski ATS 65 HD.
Or find a good opportunity from the current range. Speaking of which, is the current APO Televid 65 as interesting as the ATS 65 HD?

(with the help of a translator)

 

[Hermann]

I know that for me, x32 is just right, it's good to go to x50 sometimes. So it's impossible with a current 25-50. That means you have to go for 20-60, with the limitations you describe (notably the field of view). In my opinion, that's a lot of compromise for a 25-year-old scope, and a fairly expensive one at that. The weight criterion was also a negative for this Televid 77. So I'm going to give up.

I had both the Apo and the Televid for a time. My Apo was actually the first Apo delivered to a customer in Northern Germany ... I switched to 60mm Nikon Fieldscopes because of the weight after a birding tour to the Varanger. By the way, the optical difference between the Apo-Televid and the Televid was quite obvious in the field. I sold it after comparing the two scopes for a week or so.

The problem of chipped lenses (thank you Rotherbirder) is not to be taken lightly either, as it must be complicated to rely on customer service for a 25 year old refractor.

The flaking coating problem only occured in the Apo-Televid. If I remember correctly it occured after the scope had been exposed to salt spray at the coast. I never had that problem, I used a filter. Unfortunately the filter threads were in the hood. Totally idiotic.

I'm afraid I'll have to abandon the Leica route for the occasion and go for the Swarovski ATS 65 HD.

Go for the ATS! That's an excellent scope, and what I'd get if I had to switch scopes now. No need to get an ATX, unless you want to buy larger objective modules and/or a BTX.

Hermann

 

[Rotherbirder]

Hi Hermann,

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I've have used an APO 62 with both the zoom and the 32x WW (26x on 62 Televid) since 2004. I have no desire to change it for another scope as I have not yet seen anything better that satisfies my needs. It is excellent with both the zoom and WW eyepieces, giving good, sharp images; the FOV is not an issue for me. I have also used a filter which, on the APO 62, screws into the objective housing and not the lens hood, as in the APO 77 so no problem there either.

Good luck with your search, whatever you decide.

RB

 

[Hermann]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I've have used an APO 62 with both the zoom and the 32x WW (26x on 62 Televid) since 2004. I have no desire to change it for another scope as I have not yet seen anything better that satisfies my needs. It is excellent with both the zoom and WW eyepieces, giving good, sharp images; the FOV is not an issue for me.

Sounds good. I don't know the Apo 62 all that well. A friend of mine uses it, and he's also happy with his scope.

I have also used a filter which, on the APO 62, screws into the objective housing and not the lens hood, as in the APO 77 so no problem there either.

Yes, that was apparently only a problem of the Apo-Televid 77, the first scope Leica made. They did get a lot of criticism because of their placement of the filter threads. They changed it in their later scopes.

Good luck with your search, whatever you decide.

I'm not searching for anything, I'm quite happy with my Fieldscopes ...

Hermann

 

[jb b]

Thank you for your contributions Rotherbirder and Hermann.

It seems to me that Televid 62 are rare second-hand. I've seen a few Televid 77 recently but no 62mm. If the price is around €500 to €600 for the APO 62, that seems very acceptable.

From reading you, I get the impression that the APO 62 was at least as good as the more recent APO 65.
I'll try to find some tests between the Leica APO 65 and the Swarovski ATS 65.

If any of you have done the comparison, please feel free to contribute !

 

[dwatsonbirder]

I've used LCE many times in the past and would recommend them - I'm sure they would let you know the cost for shipping to France. Here is a pristine looking APO62 - be quick!

 

[Rotherbirder]

Thank you for your contributions Rotherbirder and Hermann.

It seems to me that Televid 62 are rare second-hand. I've seen a few Televid 77 recently but no 62mm. If the price is around €500 to €600 for the APO 62, that seems very acceptable.

From reading you, I get the impression that the APO 62 was at least as good as the more recent APO 65.
I'll try to find some tests between the Leica APO 65 and the Swarovski ATS 65.

If any of you have done the comparison, please feel free to contribute !

I tested it extensively against the equivalent Swarovski model of the time (2004) and I preferred the Leica by some margin but of course, YMMV.

RB

 

[jb b]

I've used LCE many times in the past and would recommend them - I'm sure they would let you know the cost for shipping to France. Here is a pristine looking APO62 - be quick!

Thanks for the link dwatsonbirder. This looks like a great opportunity. I have sent a price request with delivery to France.
However, I'm not comfortable with a purchase without seeing and testing the instrument first. I'm also wondering whether there is a 15-day right of withdrawal, as there is in France.

I imagine that the 20-60 on a Televid 77 becomes a 16-48 on the 62mm lens.

I think the performance of this Leica 62 is similar to an ATC 17-40x 56. Obviously, there are limits to this type of instrument. But the limits are acceptable to me on a budget of €500-600, and less acceptable (in my opinion still) on a budget of over €2000.

Edit : I have had a reply from LCE, the Leica is sold and they do not ship outside the UK.

 

[jb b]

I tested it extensively against the equivalent Swarovski model of the time (2004) and I preferred the Leica by some margin but of course, YMMV.

RB

Thank you Rotherbirder for this opinion. It is possible that the ATS 65 HD of 2024 has progressed compared to 2004. I'm interested in feedback from those who have tested it.
It is possible that the field of view of the ATS is greater with the current 25-50.

 

[jring]

Hi,

while it's a bit off topic in the Leica subforum, an old ATS HD body with the current wide angle zoom will be a nice combo - if the body is not bad.

Sure, the coatings were probably improved a bit over the years but a zoom EP has a lot more surfaces than a scope body, so having modern coatings on the EP helps quite a bit.

So if you can buy a used ATS already with the current zoom, that's sth to try... if you have to buy a new wide angle zoom to replace some other EP, the deal is probably not so sweet any more...

But in the end, sample variation is the deciding factor. Try those scopes - before buying in person or within a no questions asked return period.

Joachim

 

[jb b]

Hi,

while it's a bit off topic in the Leica subforum, an old ATS HD body with the current wide angle zoom will be a nice combo - if the body is not bad.

Sure, the coatings were probably improved a bit over the years but a zoom EP has a lot more surfaces than a scope body, so having modern coatings on the EP helps quite a bit.

So if you can buy a used ATS already with the current zoom, that's sth to try... if you have to buy a new wide angle zoom to replace some other EP, the deal is probably not so sweet any more...

But in the end, sample variation is the deciding factor. Try those scopes - before buying in person or within a no questions asked return period.

Joachim

Thank you Joachim for your post.

Unlike Leica, Swarovski has not changed the mount.
So it's a good idea to start with a lens that may be quite old and add a newer 25-50.

For this reason, it is essential to test the riflescope before you buy it, because of the sample variation. Is an average or mediocre scope the result of a bad eyepiece? Or a bad lens? Or both?

Finally, what does 'EP' mean?

 

[jring]

Hi,

EP = eyepiece.

Aberrations can occur in the body (with objective lens, image erecting prisms and maybe a focus lens) and the eyepiece, but those in the objective lens tend to have the most effect on sample variation.

Joachim

 

[jb b]

Thank you very much for your reply jring. With this contribution and the previous ones, I have a much clearer idea of how to go about the purchase, with all the necessary precautions.