Can that bird be considered "wild"? (2 Viewers)

[Dr.Boletus]

Wrong. I don't know why you say that - unless you are going to tick wood ducks just because...

- which your statements suggest that you are - and which you are certainly welcome to enjoy doing. But, if the 'Information Wanted' forum is to supply you with the information you want, you should give your ticking criteria clearly, so that people know what information you want.

Yes, I will tick them 'just because' (in reality as a lot of others have ticked wood ducks before as a Category C British bird). Unless they have had their wings clipped and cannot move from there. I am not interested in captive birds, I am interested in mandarin ducks

 

[Dr.Boletus]

In the links posted I can't see any reference to the bird being over 20 years old.

The oldest recorded Lady Amherst's pheasant in captivity is 19.6 years so I find it difficult to believe a wild bird would exceed this.

From Where to see the last Lady Amherst’s Pheasant | Bedfordshire Bird Club:
"The remaining male is probably over twenty years old and won’t have long left so please respect him and the property he lives on."
From A Tale Of Two Disappearing Pheasants | Bird Spot
"At the time, the pheasant would have been about 20 years old, and nearing the end of its natural lifespan"
From Finding the last Lady Amherst's.
"Once this final, presumably old-aged, individual perishes, it will bring a colourful era to an end" (ambiguous, supports the above)
It isn't about belief, it is about what is being written. In ideal situations I have no trouble believing that could happen

 

[Butty]

It isn't about belief, it is about what is being written

It is about belief - and seems to be about you believing what you wish to be true. What is written is indicated by those authors to be supposition and guesswork ('probably', 'would have been about').

In ideal situations I have no trouble believing that could happen

Living in the wild might be romantic, but it's far from 'ideal' in the sense of conferring longevity. It's fraught with danger - and, in general, birds live longer in captivity. I fear that your belief (in what you wish to be true) bypasses the realities of mortality data.
From the ticking point of view, though, this is academic: the bird's wings aren't clipped, hence it's 'wild' - and you would tick it regardless

 

[Dr.Boletus]

It is about belief - and seems to be about you believing what you wish to be true. What is written is indicated by those authors to be supposition and guesswork ('probably', 'would have been about').

Living in the wild might be romantic, but it's far from 'ideal' in the sense of conferring longevity. It's fraught with danger - and, in general, birds live longer in captivity. I fear that your belief (in what you wish to be true) bypasses the realities of mortality data.
From the ticking point of view, though, this is academic: the bird's wings aren't clipped, hence it's 'wild' - and you would tick it regardless

If the Regent's park birds wings aren't clipped and it can fly around, then yes, it is tickable for me as the wood duck is a Category C birds. As it is for many others

 

[Mono]

The paper that provides the 19.6 year maximal age dates to 2000. I doubt the authors writing about the last wild UK bird had any actual data on the birds birth they just assumed it was very old and looked for maximum life expectancy.

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

If the Regent's park birds wings aren't clipped and it can fly around, then yes, it is tickable for me as the wood duck is a Category C birds. As it is for many others

It was Cat E. (for escape) In 2017 it was promoted to D, (possibility of being a genuine vagrant) based on a handful of potentially wild birds in the right place at the right time etc.
Cat D is a holding category, birds are reviewed after a little while, and if new evidence is forthcoming and convincing of genuine vagrancy they can get elevated to Cat A. If not they will get bumped back down to E.

There has never been a suggestion, AFAIK, that there is any substantial escaped population that is about to become self-sustaining and therefore get ‘promoted’ to Cat C. The bar for that category has been significantly raised as most people/agencies don’t really want to give legal protection to a non-natural invasive species.

I suspect that Wood Duck will, one day, get to be Cat A, there will be a perfect record that gets it over the line. I wouldn’t hold your breath on that though, and it will no doubt be in a far flung part of the realm.

 

[Mono]

White Stork is a Cat A British List bird. A local wildlife park has unclipped, free-flying White Storks that turn up at various locations many miles from the park. They are handsome birds and great to see but I wouldn't dream of ticking them.

 

[Dr.Boletus]

It was Cat E. (for escape) In 2017 it was promoted to D, (possibility of being a genuine vagrant) based on a handful of potentially wild birds in the right place at the right time etc.
Cat D is a holding category, birds are reviewed after a little while, and if new evidence is forthcoming and convincing of genuine vagrancy they can get elevated to Cat A. If not they will get bumped back down to E.

There has never been a suggestion, AFAIK, that there is any substantial escaped population that is about to become self-sustaining and therefore get ‘promoted’ to Cat C. The bar for that category has been significantly raised as most people/agencies don’t really want to give legal protection to a non-natural invasive species.

I suspect that Wood Duck will, one day, get to be Cat A, there will be a perfect record that gets it over the line. I wouldn’t hold your breath on that though, and it will no doubt be in a far flung part of the realm.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Dr.Boletus]

White Stork is a Cat A British List bird. A local wildlife park has unclipped, free-flying White Storks that turn up at various locations many miles from the park. They are handsome birds and great to see but I wouldn't dream of ticking them.

Given white stork has been officially reintroduced, much as great bustard, I would tick them on my list as British birds

 

[Farnboro John]

Given white stork has been officially reintroduced, much as great bustard, I would tick them on my list as British birds

There is no evidence that the White Stork and Great Bustard populations are self-sustaining and neither of those populations are tickable. British birders have however been able to tick vagrants from abroad.

Next!

John

 

[Butty]

neither of those populations are tickable

If I wanted to tick them (I don't), I'd tick them. We each make our own rules - or have none.

 

[Farnboro John]

If I wanted to tick them (I don't), I'd tick them. We each make our own rules - or have none.

Actually there is a great deal of consensus, and a little bit of healthy disagreement round the edges, usually about individual birds rather than species. But the OP of this thread is challenging the basis of the consensus, and plainly seeking some sort of endorsement for ticking that is well outside of the generally accepted rules. So it's best to be clear to them about stuff that's completely untickable, and plastic Wood Ducks, White Storks, Great Bustards and Isle of Wight White-tailed Eagles all come into that category.

John

 

[Butty]

Actually there is a great deal of consensus

So what? You follow it if it pleases you to do so. It doesn't please others, so they don't - and there's no reason why they should.

the OP of this thread is challenging the basis of the consensus

Actually, he isn't. This is just a knee-jerk response to what you think he's saying. He may reject the consensus, but that's very different from challenging it (ie trying to convince others that he's right). He's actually just stating his own personal truth and asking for information to find out whether he can, on his own personal terms, tick wood ducks. Goodness me, you're managing to get me more sympathetic for the OP than for your (so it seems) tick-Nazi approach.

completely untickable

...according to the rules that you prefer to keep to. That's your own business - the OP can tick what he wants.

 

[Jeremy Gloucestershire]

A week ago, I undertook a very exhausting trip to see a Lady Amherst's pheasant near Flitwick. The trip was succesfull- I have great photos of it. But there is a problem.
I always wanted to see 'wild' birds, not captive ones or anything. With that pheasant, I have no trouble with its introduced status and also have no trouble with it being 'wild'- that population was introduced in the 19th Century and is now down to a single male, which is so elusive I am not surprised at all that it was not found sooner.
I wanted to see a Lady Amherst's pheasant since the time when the Collins complete photographic guide to British Birds was brand new. But there is another bird which falls into the same category.
I wanted to see wood ducks forever. Obviously I can't just go to the US, because I am a student. In my opinion, the wood duck is the prettiest duck in the world, surpassing even the mandarin duck. I got very happy when I found out that Regent's Park has some wood ducks (as does St James's park), but can they really be considered 'wild', ie can they freely leave and roam about the place? I know the pelicans can, but nevertheless. And I know that Regent's has a mandarin pair which can roam about, too.
And what about Kew Gardens's golden pheasants, perhaps the last in the UK? Are they 'wild-introduced', or what would be defined as 'captive'?

Hi there, I have just posted in this "Information Wanted" section, asking about the Lady Amherst's pheasant. Could you have a quick look at my post and see if you can help with my question there? I'd also love to see one

 

[Farnboro John]

So what? You follow it if it pleases you to do so. It doesn't please others, so they don't - and there's no reason why they should.

Actually, he isn't. This is just a knee-jerk response to what you think he's saying. He may reject the consensus, but that's very different from challenging it (ie trying to convince others that he's right). He's actually just stating his own personal truth and asking for information to find out whether he can, on his own personal terms, tick wood ducks. Goodness me, you're managing to get me more sympathetic for the OP than for your (so it seems) tick-Nazi approach.

...according to the rules that you prefer to keep to. That's your own business - the OP can tick what he wants.

Well, if you're going to embrace such nonsense as "personal truth" there's no more to be said.

Fundamentally I agree with you that he can tick what he likes.

John

 

[Butty]

if you're going to embrace such nonsense as "personal truth" there's no more to be said

Come along... You're getting a wee bit picky and pedantic there 😉

I agree with you that he can tick what he likes.

Hoorah! 👍🏻

 

[Sangahyando]

A week ago, I undertook a very exhausting trip to see a Lady Amherst's pheasant near Flitwick. The trip was succesfull- I have great photos of it. But there is a problem.
I always wanted to see 'wild' birds, not captive ones or anything. With that pheasant, I have no trouble with its introduced status and also have no trouble with it being 'wild'- that population was introduced in the 19th Century and is now down to a single male, which is so elusive I am not surprised at all that it was not found sooner.
I wanted to see a Lady Amherst's pheasant since the time when the Collins complete photographic guide to British Birds was brand new. But there is another bird which falls into the same category.
I wanted to see wood ducks forever. Obviously I can't just go to the US, because I am a student. In my opinion, the wood duck is the prettiest duck in the world, surpassing even the mandarin duck. I got very happy when I found out that Regent's Park has some wood ducks (as does St James's park), but can they really be considered 'wild', ie can they freely leave and roam about the place? I know the pelicans can, but nevertheless. And I know that Regent's has a mandarin pair which can roam about, too.
And what about Kew Gardens's golden pheasants, perhaps the last in the UK? Are they 'wild-introduced', or what would be defined as 'captive'?

Playing devil's advocate for a bit, surely at some point it would be more cost-efficient to travel to a foreign place (e.g. USA/Canada for Wood Duck, with the added bonus of seeing a lot of other new species) for a week or two to see the local species in their natural environment than to race around the country for years, chasing vagrants or introduced species with doubtful status?

 

[Dr.Boletus]

Playing devil's advocate for a bit, surely at some point it would be more cost-efficient to travel to a foreign place (e.g. USA/Canada for Wood Duck, with the added bonus of seeing a lot of other new species) for a week or two to see the local species in their natural environment than to race around the country for years, chasing vagrants or introduced species with doubtful status?

I would be more than happy to, but am a university student with a very limited budget...

 

[Dr.Boletus]

There is no evidence that the White Stork and Great Bustard populations are self-sustaining and neither of those populations are tickable. British birders have however been able to tick vagrants from abroad.

Next!

John

Not true. White storks at Knepp have bred and raised chicks, which is a first step towards a self-sustaining population. You may disagree and complain that so and so, but that is exactly how the WTE population on Rhum started off.
As for the great bustards, The UK Great Bustard Population - Great Bustard Group. Self-sustaining.

 

[David_]

Completely off topic but: Anyone else noticed the numbers stated by Great Bustard Group don’t add up?

They say they stopped importing eggs after 2019 and since then the population went from 75 to close to 100. Also they state one third of the population is wild bred at Wiltshire.
Let‘s say the number of birds is currently 95 (around 100). This means at least 20 birds were born in 2020 or later and are alive. So the maximum number of wild bred birds born before 2020 which are still living is 13 around (plus or minus a few because they say „approximately“ a third). For a reintroduction starting in 2004 the number of living wild bred birds born before 2020 seems astonishingly little compared to the number of bustards born after 2019.
Why would the success rate for breeding and survival be that much higher since 2019? Maybe I misunderstood something but for me it looks like the numbers just don’t add up.