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Contentious Subject (1 Viewer)

I've probably seen you then!

we used to sit by the cemetry just North of Belper and watch you nutcases go past at whatever speed it used to be!. They have helicopters now to keep an eye on you!
 
I really don't see why people think that twitchers don't actually do any other birding? I have twitched in the past and will again (time out for kids), but that has never stopped me being just as enthusiastic at seeing the common birds on my patch or at local sites. I also do not understand why people feel that twitchers don't actually look at the birds, there are some tick and run people out there, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. An example, on Wednesday I went to see the Baltiomore oriole, in Oxford, I was under a time restraint as I had to get my son to Nursery for 12:30 (I arrived at 10) which meant I had to leave by 11:30 at the latest, the bird showed at 11:25, so I literally had to tick and run, not through choice but nessecity, there were however people there who had been there since before I got there, who had already seen the bird but wanted longer and better views. Does this make me a worse birder because I had only a small amount of time? No it does not. I know a lot of very good birders, far more experienced and knowledgable than I, who twitch, they are also the ones leading the ID frontiers, and moving our hobby forward.

It seems to me Twitchers are happy to let anyone enjoy thier hobby but non-twitchers are always trying to make twitchers feel ashamed that they enjoy seeing many and varied birds rare and non-rare alike. Its about time the non twitchers out there atarted to live and let live!

As for the guy on the Lizard who "supresses" those great birds (if they are genuine 8-P ) he is well within his rights, I just feel it is a very selfish attitude to keep them to himself, why not allow others to enjoy what he has enjoyed? :-C

Rant over go back on with your bussiness theres nothing more to see. :hippy:
 
Jasonbirder said:
No but just as a company has a duty to be transparent & answerable to its shareholders so does an organisation to its members!

I`ll never forget an article in the RSPB Birds magazine in which the then head of the RSPB (when it was a woman, can`t remember her name) was taken to see nesting Monty`s at a site whose location was withheld...i`m thinking HELLO!!! Its us that pay your wages love! Why should you be given the VIP treatment and us excluded........

And that prat got another well paid job after leaving the RSPB!!! A figurehead only, doesn't know much about birds that's probably why she had to be shown a Monty :C

IH
 
I know a lot of very good birders, far more experienced and knowledgable than I, who twitch, they are also the ones leading the ID frontiers, and moving our hobby forward.

.....and there are several more who don't who are also leading things forward....not just ID wise.


It seems to me Twitchers are happy to let anyone enjoy their hobby but non-twitchers are always trying to make twitchers feel ashamed that they enjoy seeing many and varied birds rare and non-rare alike. Its about time the non twitchers out there atarted to live and let live!

Totally disagree. Non-twitchers should be allowed to bird how they like- - you put them under the obligation to release news and play by your rules! People like the guy on the lizard are happy to live outside your birding world - quite obviously. Leave em to it.....er live and let live?

As for the guy on the Lizard who "supresses" those great birds (if they are genuine 8-P ) he is well within his rights, I just feel it is a very selfish attitude to keep them to himself, why not allow others to enjoy what he has enjoyed? :-

er....why not genuine? Because lots of people haven't seen them? These days if loads a folk haven't seen 'it' it seems to get dissed a little.
 
Absolutely, Tim. Ashley comes up with two utterly contradictory statements in one post!:
"It seems to me Twitchers are happy to let anyone enjoy thier hobby........ As for the guy on the Lizard who "supresses" those great birds (if they are genuine ) he is well within his rights, I just feel it is a very selfish attitude to keep them to himself,"
 
Blimey guys...its christmas what about a bit of peace and harmony for once ;)

Seriously though yet again people who don`t twitch (or perhaps don`t currently twitch, but have in the past or people who only twitch local rarities???) want to beat people that do with a big stick of righteousness....I can`t for the life of me think why it can arouse such antipathy, after all you don`t get people on here proclaiming "Patch Watchers - whats the point visiting the same site week in week out why don`t they show a bit more imagination" or "county listers - blimey whats that all about, why have your birding demarcated by artificial administrative boundarys" etc etc do you?

Birding is a hobby, a lesiure activity, an escape from the day to day pressures of work and responsibilites, different people get pleasure from different aspects - fantastic! Twitching, patchwatching, seawatching, ringing, world birding, rarity finding or just enjoying the birds on your feeders are all equally valid expressions of that.

The reality of most peoples birding isn`t a clear cut divide into purely one aspect - most birders mix and match a combination depending on what they want to do at anyone time - a bit of twitching, a bit of seawatching, a bit of patch watching - all go together to make a varied and enjoyable year!

I am loathe to go on and justify why I enjoy seeing birds to anyone - its my hard earned freetime and money I use up and I can do with it exactly as I see fit, but just for the record - twitching gives me the opportunity to see interesting birds i`d never have the chance to see otherwise - i`ll never get to Kazakhstan for a Black Lark but I can make it to Anglesea can`t I? All the birds we see common, scarce and rare are fascinating but there is an allure to the unusual, the infrequently seen, some of them are beautiful, some offer tricky ID challanges, some are spectacular, some hold their mystery by simple elusiveness but there is definately a magic to them all that never palls for me. Twitching is about far more than seeing rare birds though - its the "adventure" of an overnight drive to some distant and beutiful part of the country, its the ferry ride across to the Western Isles, its a hair raising flight in a tiny plane through lumbering storm clouds. Its about spending time free time with good friends and the cameraderie that goes with it. When I think about some of the beautiful and spectacular places I have visited through twitching - it`ll take a hell of a lot to convince me i`d have had more fun spending all of my time at the ash settling pool at the back of my local tip! Its the opportunity to see the birdlife of all the different parts of the country - seeing a rarity is usually accompanied by spending the day birding in that part of the country, whether thats the waders on a winter estuary, seaduck bobbing distantly in a scottish loch, a swarm of Gulls roosting on a reservoir or thousands of Geese sheltering a lone straggler it provides the ideal vehicle for experiencing every birding spectacle that this country has to offer - and its not just birds its other wildlife butterflies, dragonflies, otters whales and the like that you can experience too...

Of course a list of birds that you`ve seen
signifies nothing
but why should it? Does a list of birds you`ve seen on a local patch signify anything? Does a list of birds you`ve found signify anything? I`m not sure I want it to signify anything either - its fun not work!

I suppose the birds you`ve seen does relate to
who gets the most freetime
but then doesn`t someones patchlist relate to how much time you spend on your patch? Isn`t how many birds you find a function of how much freetime you spend searching?

The so called "Twitcher" who has to dash off to every sighting,notch up "yet another" in the note book,they see the bird ,but do they "really see it".Once it has been ticked off,then it is off home and wait for the next rarity
What a fallacy this is, of couse they really see it - they will eagerly pore over every feature, watch its slightest move, listen to its every call - they will spend ages with a bird (time allowing) because its new & exciting! No-one retreats home waiting for the next rarity - the people I know (myself included) are out at first light birding till dusk because theats what they enjoy!

.....and there are several more who don't (Twitch) who are also leading things forward (Birding)....not just ID wise
Good for them - but what if you`ve no desire to move anything forward, what if you simply want to enjoy your hobby and share it with friends and companions? Should I not play five-a-side football after work, just because i`ll never make the Man Utd first team? Why be so elitist?

Non-twitchers should be allowed to bird how they like- you put them under the obligation to release news and play by your rules! People like the guy on the lizard are happy to live outside your birding world - quite obviously

Its not about obligation, its about friendliness & generousity. He is not obliged to release news, but why would he not want to - its not about pressure or disturbance if its the Lizard is it? There are far more tourists traipsing around in summer than birders even a Wallcreeper or Siberian Rubythroat would generate in October...and birders are less likely to leave litter, leave gates open or have their dogs running riot aren`t they? He just chooses not to share his good fortune with others - well within his rights of course, but as i`m sure he`s aware of the pleasure those birds would give to hundreds of other people merely demonstrates a certain lack of generosity of spirit doesn`t it? It would be like me not pointing out a Merlin at Horsey Mill to a group of novice birders or explaining the ID of a bird to someone that asked for help - well within my rights - but mean & selfish!

er....why not genuine? Because lots of people haven't seen them?
far be it from me to answer this one i`ll just quote from the Association of European records and rarities commitees guidelines "Whenever possible, records should be proved by photographs, video films or" tape recordings" ....
 
Firstly I want to say I reckon Birding is very diverse and we should all let each other do exactly what we want. Non twitchers can be just as boorish and derogatory to twitchers as well as the other way round. Lets get on with each other and have a chat when we pass each other, that is one of the beauties of birding for me. I just ignore the ones who think themselves aloof.

I wish to mention a incident that disturbed me very much. I was in Hayle late October. There was a small group of local birders who I have seen since around the area. One of them was kind enough to point out the Lesser Yellowlegs on what I think was the first day it was present. I received a message on my mobile from a friend and read it. He saw my mobile and told me not to put it out on the newslines. I thought this was quite selfish thing to do. I did not want to jeopardise any chances of further help from the local 'Army' so I didn't do so. I asked him why he wanted it kept under wraps and he just put his finger to his mouth and pulled funny faces. Recently, I was down there with a friend and we saw the small group again. One of them was approached by my friend. Straight away he gave him a funny look and loudly said "I don't want to talk to you!" and walked to the other end of the gathering. That was quite offensive.
 
Hi all,
Andrew:whatever about not wanting news of the Lesser Yellowlegs put out(and why not?It's not as if there would be a huge crowd for one!),there is no excuse for the sort of behaviour exhibited by one of that group to your friend,except to say that there are people like that in all walks of life,and such an attitude crops up among twitchers,local "cliques",conservationists etc
Purely from a finder's point of view here,and leaving aside the fact that I "had" to put news of the Hume's out(as I'd hope to hear about something similarly rare),the more people that see it(and preferrably get video footage,photos etc),the better chance it has of being accepted by the IRBC....;)
Harry H
 
look, you've got to read what people are saying Jason

you appear to be replying to what people are not saying and to an attitude you are giving them.

no one is beating twitchers and certainly not with a 'stick of righteousnes' All that's being said is that if people do not want to release news that's up to them and let them get on with their lives. YOU seem to be having a go at THEM!

Hey.....and Merry Xmas too
I just finished work for the year!
Just off to the five-a-side now - couldn't make the mAn U team these days but when I was 18........well to be honest I couldn't then either!!!
 
Well, this thread has certainly lived up to its title! [Jane, did you intend the thread to become this contentious?].

I must confess that I don't quite understand why there is such animosity on the birding/twitching issue. I am part-birder, part-twitcher, and I really enjoy both! I feel I get the best of both worlds.

As for suppression/release, I do think Jason and Ashley make strong points abou suppressors lacking a certain generosity of spirit. And I do wonder about people like the guy on the Lizard. Not reporting sightings is one thing - I would [and do] report, but I can just about see the point of view of those who won't.

However, what if someone comes along, sees the guy on the Lizard looking at something, and asks if there is anything good about? Does the guy (and would his supporters) lie and say "Nothing"? Will he not even give pleasure to someone who is already there? I hope he (and supporters) would, but one does wonder.

I suppose they might say "Find your own", but what if it's a wryneck 200 yards away among rocks, that he happened to see land? The newcomer is extremely unlikely to spot it without help.

There are many times when I have been benefited from others' help, and many times when I have helped others. A world where birders didn't do that would be a sadder world indeed.
 
As someone might once have said, "All this cruel world needs is a little kindness", and more famously, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

I suppose it seems politically correct to agrere that we should all be allowed to act as we choose - a comment made often enough in this thread - but, we do live in a society not on an island of one, so we have responsibilities to others in that society. And that includes being kindly and helpful in my view.

We've all felt snubbed and hurt by holier than thou birdwatchers, twitchers included, even on this forum on rare occasion, yet we've all also met wonderful people that help us and make our day. The second group get my vote every time.
 
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Hi Tim,
"Just off to the five-a-side now - couldn't make the mAn U team these days but when I was 18........well to be honest I couldn't then either!!!"
Don't know about that:seem to recall Man U being pretty poor around the time that you were 18(1986).Ron got the sack in late 86 and Fergie didn't really do much in his first few seasons.Maybe you'd have made the starting eleven...?;)
Harry H
 
Tim Allwood said:
I've probably seen you then!

we used to sit by the cemetry just North of Belper and watch you nutcases go past at whatever speed it used to be!. They have helicopters now to keep an eye on you!
I would think"Heard" Rather than seen,Tim!!,
Christine.;)
 
CJW said:
I prefer a 996 Duckatti, Jason......
Good choice,CJ ,or how about a Triumph Thunderbird,
Christine.

Jason,when I said how many twitchers actually "SEE" the bird,I was not criticising as such,just trying to point out that as in every hobby there are different levels and different fields of enjoyment and study.One cannot really try to make comparisons .But it must be annoying to some people when they say they enjoy nature and bird watching as such,and the general media ,pounce and say "Oh,are you one of them there twitchers ,then",immediately conjuring up a picture of someone creeping around the bushes in a green wooly hat,notepad,pencil,binoculars and goodness knows what else,hung around the neck and stuffed in pockets.Similar perhaps to train spotters.There could be a quite normal guy,just interested in trains and engines in general,but as soon as he mentions the fact,he is visually dressed in an anorak,hat pulled down over eyes,thermos and sarnies,sitting in a field all day staring at a railway line,or hanging over a bridge.People seem to be so stereotyped,and have to be fitted into slots or boxes.
Live and let live,but allow people to be individuals.Sorry I have perhaps got somewhat carried away here,but this a subject which has been mentioned on threads lots of times.
Christine.
 
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christineredgat said:
But it must be annoying to some people when they say they enjoy nature and bird watching as such,and the general media ,pounce and say "Oh,are you one of them there twitchers ,then"
Too right, Christine. It annoys the hell out of me, even when I'm on a twitch!

Jason
 
Bluetail said:
Too right, Christine. It annoys the hell out of me, even when I'm on a twitch!

Jason
Perhaps another name could be invented ,Jason,now there's an idea,
Christine.
Just thought of another "birders bike",Honda Blackbird and Coventry Eagle.
Christine.
 
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Can't find Christine's original comment Jason (Bluetail) but that annoys me too. I had just got the flat in Scilly and the landlord (extremely nice fella who hasn't got a nice word for Prince Charles!) and he said "Aaah, twitcher!" I had to correct him and say I am a BIRDER!

Let's all rub along nicely as we have all got something to offer each other really!
 
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