Crow, Croatia - Hooded, Black or hybrid? (1 Viewer)

[Parmenides]

Hi!
Im interested in your opinion, please?
I guess it could be melanistic Hooded crow or perhaps some crossbreed between Carrion and Hoded crow?
Thanx!
Taken today, Croatia, Europe. (In this region Carrion crows are extremely rare)

 

[aeshna5]

Looks like a fairly standard Carrion Crow to me.

 

[njlarsen]

The plumage shows some paler feathers amongst the dark ones. I find it difficult to say if those are due to fade (different generations of feathers) or to hybrid background- if so, in the form of a backcross.

Niels

 

[tconzemi]

Aren't these just ruffled feathers? I don't see real grey feathers

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Where Carrion Crow and Hooded Crow are sympatric, I’m not sure you can ever really rule out some mixed gene heritage but it looks like a straight forward CC nonetheless - those pale spots are just the paler feather bases showing.

( x post with Tom!)

 

[njlarsen]

For completeness, this is not very far from Vienna just to mention one location where all sorts of hybrids and back crosses thrive.
Niels

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

For me, this is a difficult bird (partly due to picture quality). When I saw these pictures yesterday, both identifications ("phaenotypical pure CC" and CC x HC) came into my mind, but I wasnt sure.
Yes, ruffled feathers can reveal grey/paler feather bases and/or the pale plumes and result in a similar pure CC like this bird here. And this is probably the explanaition for the whitish feathers in this bird (the whitish feathers are not relevant for the decision if this bird is a pure CC or not).

But: with a little bit of good will, you can see the right dark hood (although it doesnt reach down to the breast), the paler neck and a slight indication of a paler, U-shaped breast-band on the right side of the bird. As a result, this bird seems to ghost a good pattern for a Hooded Crow, this U-shaped breast-band is present in many "intermediate-birds" in the contact-zone.
More, this bird seems to show the right streaky apperance of the paler plumage parts, that many "intermediate-birds" in the contact-zone shows. And I can imagine seeing the right dark narrow, well defined streaks in the paler neck band that are present in some "pure-looking" HC.

Conclusion? Although on can get the feeling, that this is a quite sure CC x HC for me, I am still unsure. Its mainly due to picture quality, and I hope for sharper and more pictures, in different light of this bird. So, the above mentioned points can be judged with confidence.
If this bird has a dark hood reaching far down the breast, I would id it as a "quite sure" CC x HC, but as this bird lacks this, this adds to my hesitation to make a confident identification.
The above described decision between both forms is often no problem in the field, as you can judge the above mentioned points from different angles and give the bird a close scrutinity, if necessary. This cant be done here, I get the impression, that all pictures show the bird from similar angles and light conditions.
I have seen similar "appearantly pure" CC (with a paler neck, ghosting a CC x HC), where a closer look revealed paler plumage parts to be the result of ruffled feathers and sometimes a pure condition of the bird.
And I have seen similar birds, where a closer look revealed them to be HX x CC. they are quite regular in the contact zone in NE-Germany.
So I hope for more pictures or more comments!

Its in german, but I hope its helpful:

Hybrid Crows - www.ornitho.de

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Interesting analysis Alex but I can’t see a hood or even ghost of one imo or at least enough clarity to say the ‘hood’ is more than just how the light is falling on different directional feathers and the angle to of the sun.

In the first image #1
the right side of the bird’s head (facing us) is in shade, sun coming from the left and sky light from above. The sun/shade divide in a vertical line from the left foot through the ear coverts
In image #2
The sun/shade line now running down the centre of the bird’s face but still in line with the left foot
In image #3
The same as #2
In image #4
Back to profile and the vertical shade line from the left foot up through ear coverts again. This time the vertical plane of the dark side of the face contrasting with the sky light falling the feathers on the upper breast (and the lighter ruffled feathers)

I think your ‘ghost’ hood plumage is very invisible on these images imo and any ’hooded’ effect is caused by lighting 😉

 

[Andy Hurley]

For me, this is a difficult bird (partly due to picture quality). When I saw these pictures yesterday, both identifications ("phaenotypical pure CC" and CC x HC) came into my mind, but I wasnt sure.
Yes, ruffled feathers can reveal grey/paler feather bases and/or the pale plumes and result in a similar pure CC like this bird here. And this is probably the explanaition for the whitish feathers in this bird (the whitish feathers are not relevant for the decision if this bird is a pure CC or not).

But: with a little bit of good will, you can see the right dark hood (although it doesnt reach down to the breast), the paler neck and a slight indication of a paler, U-shaped breast-band on the right side of the bird. As a result, this bird seems to ghost a good pattern for a Hooded Crow, this U-shaped breast-band is present in many "intermediate-birds" in the contact-zone.
More, this bird seems to show the right streaky apperance of the paler plumage parts, that many "intermediate-birds" in the contact-zone shows. And I can imagine seeing the right dark narrow, well defined streaks in the paler neck band that are present in some "pure-looking" HC.

Conclusion? Although on can get the feeling, that this is a quite sure CC x HC for me, I am still unsure. Its mainly due to picture quality, and I hope for sharper and more pictures, in different light of this bird. So, the above mentioned points can be judged with confidence.
If this bird has a dark hood reaching far down the breast, I would id it as a "quite sure" CC x HC, but as this bird lacks this, this adds to my hesitation to make a confident identification.
The above described decision between both forms is often no problem in the field, as you can judge the above mentioned points from different angles and give the bird a close scrutinity, if necessary. This cant be done here, I get the impression, that all pictures show the bird from similar angles and light conditions.
I have seen similar "appearantly pure" CC (with a paler neck, ghosting a CC x HC), where a closer look revealed paler plumage parts to be the result of ruffled feathers and sometimes a pure condition of the bird.
And I have seen similar birds, where a closer look revealed them to be HX x CC. they are quite regular in the contact zone in NE-Germany.
So I hope for more pictures or more comments!

Its in german, but I hope its helpful:

Hybrid Crows - www.ornitho.de

Interesting analysis Alex but I can’t see a hood or even ghost of one.

The ‘hood‘ is just how the light is falling on different directional feathers and the angle to of the sun. In the first image #1
the right side of the bird’s head (facing us) is in shade, sun coming from the left and sky light from above. The sun/shade divide in a vertical line from the left foot through the ear coverts
In image #2
The sun/shade line now running down the centre of the bird’s face but still in line with the left foot
In image #3
The same as #2
In image #4
Back to profile and the vertical shade line from the left foot up through ear coverts again. This time the vertical plane of the dark side of the face contrasting with the sky light falling the feathers on the upper breast (and the lighter ruffled feathers)

I think your ‘ghost’ is very invisible 😉

I with Alexander on this. I can see the ghosting on the 3rd photo without expanding it. It appears to be on both the sunlit and shadow sides of the bird. Have seen CCxHC in Scotland, Helgoland and all over the Eastern Germany contact zone. Sure they vary, looking from nearly CC to nearly HC, but with these, the possibility of both in it's gene pool cannot be ruled out imho.

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Further reading on Hybrid Crows:

Hoodie / Carrion Crow hybrid identification

There is a link below to the paper published in the Orkney Bird Report 2013. This is very much a work in progress and I am currently (time ...

literateherringthisway.blogspot.com

 

[Deb Burhinus]

sure they vary, looking from nearly CC to nearly HC, but with these, the possibility of both in it's gene pool cannot be ruled out imho.

That’s what I said in my post #5 above Andy. On these unclear images, we have to disagree there are visible signs of hybridity, even though non-expressed hybridity as I said, can not be ruled out due sympatric occurrence/contact zones.

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Further reading on Hybrid Crows:

Hoodie / Carrion Crow hybrid identification

There is a link below to the paper published in the Orkney Bird Report 2013. This is very much a work in progress and I am currently (time ...

literateherringthisway.blogspot.com

Excellent link demonstrating the pitfall of thinking grey feather bases on Carrion Crow are due to hybridity even in the hybrid zones which is the point I also made above with regard to the OP.

 

[dantheman]

Couple thoughts - Croatia well outside the normal range of Carrion Crow and any hybrid zone. Are hybrids more likely to wander? It looks fairly 'rough'/scruffy.

Does hybrid influence 'need' to be fully ruled out for acceptance as a Carrion Crow? (What is the status of CC and hybrids on the Croatian list/nearby).

 

[foresttwitcher]

Croatia well outside the normal range of Carrion Crow and any hybrid zone.

I've seen a single obvious (in my opinion at the time) Carrion Crow in a small flock of Hooded Crows in Slovenia - I think also apparently well out of range.

 

[Parmenides]

I'd like to thank everybody, this was very educating for me. Special thanx to Alexander for such a detailed answer and everybody who helped with their opinion.
I have to make some better photos when I catch the time. I don't have some other info, except vocalisation, which was not significantly different from Hooded crow vocalisazion. The bird also seemed a bit smaller than Hodded crow.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,
reading this thread again, I get the feeling, that I expressed my opinion not clear enough. I hope it is not regarded as an offense, if I try again:
First, I agree with all points said above. But I got the impression, that this bird is judged to be a Carrion Crow, that shows no signs of visible influence of Hooded Crow. And that it can be identified as such with confidence, even in a vagrant context.

My aim is, to set a caveat, that there are CC x HC that look similar to this bird and to pure CC with ruffled feathers. The pictures here are not good enough for a confident identification imo, so I hope that you can shot better pictures, that help to confirm, that this bird is either a phenotypical pure CC or a CC x HC.

I will try to take pictures of similar crows, that look like this bird, but reveal their hybrid origin on closer looks. They are regular around Ziesar, so I will surely find one.