Death Of The Alpha? (1 Viewer)

[Hermann]

Is there enough difference between alpha's and Tract's and Maven's to justify the huge price difference for the average person?

The "average person" think people like you and me are loonies. Simple as that. And I don't particularly care about what the "average person" thinks anyway. In fact, I couldn't care less.

And no, I won't buy a Tract or a Maven or any other bin or scope that isn't supported by one of the major manufacturers. There's a simple reason: With the major manufacturers I can rely on getting a pair of binoculars or a scope serviced after 10 years no problem. With Tract Tronic or Maven I'm not so sure. Not at all, in fact, after what happened to Zen Ray.

I'm also not really in favour of buying a product from a manufacturer that doesn't appear to do any research to further improve binoculars. Canon, Leica, Nikon, Swarovski and Zeiss, to name the usual suspects, all did just that in the past, and will presumably carry on doing so.

And yes, there's quite a lot that can be improved further.

Hermann

 

[Sancho]

Me neither Sancho, but some love to do it and why not? As long as the bird isn't harrassed so it can't feed or rest properly.

Lee

Lord no, Lee, I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with whatever way each individual wants to go about their birding business. Or indeed their binocular-buying business. I got tired of the eternal searching though, but maybe it's a personality-type thing - for years I enjoyed it, but then found myself stressing out about it, which isn't what a recreational pastime is supposed to be about. Relating back to the thread point, some people will always be prepared to go the extra mile or dollar to gain a marginal improvement, and they are perfectly entitled to; so I don't think 'alphas' will die out. As Hermann said, it's the big four (or so) that drive the innovation that is copied by lower-cost manufacturers. Then there is the very thorny issue of how those costs are lowered.

 

[[email protected]]

Who is the average person ?

The average person probably is`nt a Birder, if like me money does`nt grow on trees then I choose to have the finest optics and drive a modest car, I love, really love, mechanical watches, but I wear a mid tier Seiko and put my money into my Swaro`s and Leica`s.

One without "Alpha Eyes." I had some expensive mechanical watches for awhile. I had them in an automatic winder on the night stand and every time I used them I had to set the time and date on them. Big PIA. I have an atomic solar Casio now. I don't have to do anything to it and it is more accurate. Kind of like a Tract binocular easy to use and no problems and cheap and as sharp as a Zeiss.

 

[[email protected]]

The "average person" think people like you and me are loonies. Simple as that. And I don't particularly care about what the "average person" thinks anyway. In fact, I couldn't care less.

And no, I won't buy a Tract or a Maven or any other bin or scope that isn't supported by one of the major manufacturers. There's a simple reason: With the major manufacturers I can rely on getting a pair of binoculars or a scope serviced after 10 years no problem. With Tract Tronic or Maven I'm not so sure. Not at all, in fact, after what happened to Zen Ray.

I'm also not really in favour of buying a product from a manufacturer that doesn't appear to do any research to further improve binoculars. Canon, Leica, Nikon, Swarovski and Zeiss, to name the usual suspects, all did just that in the past, and will presumably carry on doing so.

And yes, there's quite a lot that can be improved further.

Hermann

Why worry about service? It is a big pain to send your binoculars in to the manufacturer anyway. It takes weeks and sometime months to get a repair done ,whereas, Tract and Maven will just send you a new pair of binoculars in less than a week if something happens to them. This eliminates having to have the overhead costs of a repair department and a big inventory of parts which add more to the costs of your binocular. When you buy an alpha a big chunk of what you pay goes for that. Tract or Maven should not even be mentioned in the same sentence with Zen Ray. Tract and Maven's are a way higher quality Japanese built binocular than the Chinese Zen Ray. In fact IMO the alpha's have no big advantage over them in build quality or optics. As far as research that costs money also. I don't know if Tract and Maven do any research or not. Maybe they do in as far what type of materials and glass to use in their binoculars and they probably establish what specifications they want to use for them when they let Kamakura build them. Let the few alpha manufacturers that are left do the research and Tract and Maven can benefit from their research and the consumer get's those benefits without having to pay directly for them. What really BIG advances have Zeiss and Swarovski made other than flat fields and sharp edges which produce rolling ball and other optical artifacts that a lot of people don't like anyway. All the manufacturers including Tract and Maven can source the same quality glass and materials as the alpha manufacturers and the Japanese can assemble a binocular just as well as the Germans or Austrians. The gap is getting closer and some of the alpha manufacturers are going to start dropping out of the binocular business. The "Death of the Alpha's" is coming.

 

[ceasar]

Why worry about service? It is a big pain to send your binoculars in to the manufacturer anyway. It takes weeks and sometime months to get a repair done ,whereas, Tract and Maven will just send you a new pair of binoculars in less than a week if something happens to them. This eliminates having to have the overhead costs of a repair department and a big inventory of parts which add more to the costs of your binocular. When you buy an alpha a big chunk of what you pay goes for that. Tract or Maven should not even be mentioned in the same sentence with Zen Ray. Tract and Maven's are a way higher quality Japanese built binocular than the Chinese Zen Ray. In fact IMO the alpha's have no big advantage over them in build quality or optics. As far as research that costs money also. I don't know if Tract and Maven do any research or not. Maybe they do in as far what type of materials and glass to use in their binoculars and they probably establish what specifications they want to use for them when they let Kamakura build them. Let the few alpha manufacturers that are left do the research and Tract and Maven can benefit from their research and the consumer get's those benefits without having to pay directly for them. What really BIG advances have Zeiss and Swarovski made other than flat fields and sharp edges which produce rolling ball and other optical artifacts that a lot of people don't like anyway. All the manufacturers including Tract and Maven can source the same quality glass and materials as the alpha manufacturers and the Japanese can assemble a binocular just as well as the Germans or Austrians. The gap is getting closer and some of the alpha manufacturers are going to start dropping out of the binocular business. The "Death of the Alpha's" is coming.

Indeed!

Surely the day is almost upon us when the people who frequent binocular forums like this one will be arguing about which binocular manufacturer has the best "throw away" binocular!:-O:-O

We have seen here the first argument from Denco that Tract and Maven are the first binocular companies to step forward into this Brave New World of Optics! :-O :eek!:

 

[Lightbender]

My guess is that Dennis is not a real person. He's a fantasy figure, an invention of the forum owners. Birdforum's binocular division would no be half as interesting without his posts. I like it. Keep it up!

 

[Iceberg slim]

Gotta admire his pugnacity.....

 

[Pinewood]

Hello all,

Since we can expect neither Kamakura nor its customers to engage in research, if we let Zeiss, Leica and Nikon leave the binocular market, there will be no progress in binoculars. Let me remind the OP, that Zeiss advanced the use and technology of multi coated optics, developed dielectric mirrors and invented phase coating: the most important innovations for binoculars, for decades. Leica has pioneered the new and promising Perger prisms. Even that Austrian firm managed a breakthrough in ergonomics and pushed the envelope for what customers will spend for marginal improvements.

My FL binoculars and Trinovid binoculars are more than a decade old. I expect twenty years of life from them. Amortized over such a lifetime they will cost me about the same as a weekly bottle of good beer and less than a cup of coffee at a cafe.

I have had one problem with an Alpha, which was probably my fault. It was repaired and returned in two weeks.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

 

[jgraider]

We have seen here the first argument from Denco that Tract and Maven are the first binocular companies to step forward into this Brave New World of Optics! :-O :eek!:

Beats the hell out of the way Leica USA treats its customers. They are a joke.

 

[[email protected]]

Indeed!

Surely the day is almost upon us when the people who frequent binocular forums like this one will be arguing about which binocular manufacturer has the best "throw away" binocular!:-O:-O

We have seen here the first argument from Denco that Tract and Maven are the first binocular companies to step forward into this Brave New World of Optics! :-O :eek!:

I really think Tract or Maven could accomplish small repairs and adjustments but if you really damage your binoculars wouldn't you rather have a new pair instead? I would.

 

[[email protected]]

Hello all,

Since we can expect neither Kamakura nor its customers to engage in research, if we let Zeiss, Leica and Nikon leave the binocular market, there will be no progress in binoculars. Let me remind the OP, that Zeiss advanced the use and technology of multi coated optics, developed dielectric mirrors and invented phase coating: the most important innovations for binoculars, for decades. Leica has pioneered the new and promising Perger prisms. Even that Austrian firm managed a breakthrough in ergonomics and pushed the envelope for what customers will spend for marginal improvements.

My FL binoculars and Trinovid binoculars are more than a decade old. I expect twenty years of life from them. Amortized over such a lifetime they will cost me about the same as a weekly bottle of good beer and less than a cup of coffee at a cafe.

I have had one problem with an Alpha, which was probably my fault. It was repaired and returned in two weeks.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

Yes, but don't you think most of the major advancements in binoculars have been made by now? Tract and Maven have all the latest technological advancements just like the alpha's for 1/2 the money. The next BIG advancement in binocular optics will be digital anyway and then the Japanese will really dominate because that is their specialty. Sony, Nikon and Canon will be the next alpha's. The German's and the Austrian's will be left yodeling in the mountains.

 

[[email protected]]

My guess is that Dennis is not a real person. He's a fantasy figure, an invention of the forum owners. Birdforum's binocular division would no be half as interesting without his posts. I like it. Keep it up!

:clap:

 

[ceasar]

I really think Tract or Maven could accomplish small repairs and adjustments but if you really damage your binoculars wouldn't you rather have a new pair instead? I would.

Dennis:

In all seriousness, you know very well that no binocular manufacturer's guarantee will cover accidental damage to a binocular so forget about any of them, even Tract and Maven, giving you a new binocular for free if you accidentally damage yours.

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis:

In all seriousness, you know very well that no binocular manufacturer's guarantee will cover accidental damage to a binocular so forget about any of them, even Tract and Maven, giving you a new binocular for free if you accidentally damage yours.

Sounds like they would. Here are Maven and Tract's warranties.

Warranty Registration
UNCONDITIONAL LIFETIME WARRANTY

Maven optics are made with a commitment to you, our customer. All Maven optics come with an unconditional life-time warranty. If your optic becomes DAMAGED or is at all defective, contact us immediately for repair or replacement. We don’t care where or when you bought it or if it was YOUR FAULT OR NOT – if it says Maven, we will take care of it.

To insure the fastest and easiest processing of any warranty return, please register your Maven optics here.




TRACT Trust Assurance

TRACT is about an experience - your experience. The TRACT Trust Assurance was created for you to be able to trust in the products you are buying. We believe in our optical designers, engineers and suppliers so strongly that we warranty our products against defects in materials and workmanship for a lifetime, without any unnecessary paperwork or mumbo jumbo mess. This warranty applies to product materials and construction under responsible use and does not include loss, theft or INTENTIONAL damage.

At TRACT Optics, we feel that actions speak louder than words, so while we could write up a fancy warranty with all kinds of legal jargon, we prefer to take the gentleman’s approach and treat our warranty program as a matter of trust. Ownership of any TRACT product automatically falls under the TRACT Trust Assurance regardless of whether or not you are the original owner. No time limit applies and no registration is necessary.

In the unlikely event that one of our products does not perform in the manner in which it was designed and engineered, we will make it right and ensure that the issue is resolved as quickly as possible. Should you have an issue contact us at [email protected]. We are 100% focused on providing you, our customer, with the finest quality and value in the optics industry.

Just know we appreciate the opportunity to share with you our passion for creating incredible products at a realistic price, all the while giving you first-rate customer service. Your experience is our responsibility.

 

[Hermann]

Yes, but don't you think most of the major advancements in binoculars have been made by now? Tract and Maven have all the latest technological advancements just like the alpha's for 1/2 the money. The next BIG advancement in binocular optics will be digital anyway and then the Japanese will really dominate because that is their specialty. Sony, Nikon and Canon will be the next alpha's. The German's and the Austrian's will be left yodeling in the mountains.

And the world is flat.

Congratulations, you just made my ignore list again.

Hermann

 

[Sancho]

My guess is that Dennis is not a real person.

I have a curious feeling that none of us are real. Like the Chinese Emperor who dreamt he was a butterfly, we'll all wake up one day to find that we are really binoculars imagining we're people.

 

[Troubador]

Dennis old buddy, Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office in 1899. Mr. Deull's most famous attributed utterance is that "everything that can be invented has been invented." In other words there was no need to do any more research.

Probably when lens multi-coating was invented some folks thought that there were no more improvements left to make, then along came phase coatings, dielectic coatings, hydrophobic coatings, even flat fields, and don't forget eye relief big enough for glasses wearers and close focus distances great for many nature observers..... And every time you think that there is nothing left to invent in bins tech, just remember Mr Duell.

I am sure the middle price bins sector will develop futher, perhaps Tract will be able to get enough cash together to buy another small batch of 10x42s, and even more interesting is the thought that if this middle ground is so attractive from a business point of view, when will the next new company set up in competition with Tract and Maven and where will it be? USA or Europe or both?

Lee

 

[mfunnell]

Serious questions deserve a serious reply:

I am curious how you like your Maven B.3 6x30's. Are they as comfortable to use as a full size binocular like an 8x42 because of the 5mm exit pupil?

Yes, I think they are. Not just because of the exit pupil size, though that is important, but also because of the decent eye relief. I find them very comfortable in use and probably my most comfortable bins when used with glasses. Also understand, though, that I mostly use them for the reasons described here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=329552

Are they bright in low light

I'd say "not especially" - but for my use, they're really not supposed to be. When the light is low enough that I can't make things out through my 6x30s there's little enough light to take a photo.

and do they have enough magnification to see detail on birds?

Generally, enough detail for an ID. But for my use (see above) that isn't critical or even especially important. What I really need is the wide FOV to help me chase the birds to get close enough for a photo. And the B.3 6x30s certainly have that. Excellently so.

Also, what do you like about your Zeiss 8x32 FL's over the Tract Torics's 8x42.

Well, the major thing I like about my 8x32s over my Toric 8x42s (and many other bins) is their size and weight. Absent those advantages I should never have bought them. But I don't think that was your question.

What I do like about the view - size etc. notwithstanding - is just how "clean" it is. Truly minimal CA, very little flare - whether direct or veiling - high acuity and so forth. The only bins I have any time with that I'd rate as better on a "view over anything else" basis are my 10x56 FLs. That doesn't mean that some other bin from Zeiss (see: HT or SF) or Swarovski or Leica or Nikon might not be better (I haven't spent the time needed to know, just looked through them in stores) - and I've no reason to believe that others couldn't do as well or better either. I just haven't personally seen that. I do know, by direct comparison, that as good as my Tract Toric 8x42s are (they're well good enough for me), I can see that my 8x32 FLs have an optical advantage. My 10x56 FLs have an even bigger advantage - but, as the lass said, "well, they would, wouldn't they". Nothing exceeds like excess, and those 56mm objectives have a big bunch of (obviously high-grade) optical real-estate over any x32 or x42 alternatives. (Note: at my age, I doubt a larger than 5.6mm exit pupil would do me much good in any kind of light.)

I have had the FL's and they are excellent binoculars but I would think the Tract's would be a little more comfortable with easier eye placement and would be a little brighter with the bigger 5mm exit pupil.

You are correct. But I'd take the size and weight advantages of my 8x32 FLs first and foremost (they matter to me rather a lot) and take their optical advantages (see above) as an added bonus (while taking the $$$$$ involved as a substantial disadvantage). And you might note I said "my FLs" - which includes my 10x56 FLs - and those have a larger exit pupil than my Torics, give (marginally) more comfortable eye placement and are a fair bit brighter - while being way, way, way, to big and non-portable for most of my uses. They also match or exceed the advantages I described for my 8x32 FLs. They're just too inconvenient to carry around, much. But where I do use them (more often than not, tripod-mounted from my balcony) they give me a truly excellent view. I've not seen better - and if there is a better view, through a set of bins I've not seen, well, forgive me if I doubt it's better by much.

...Mike

 

[Hermann]

Probably when lens multi-coating was invented some folks thought that there were no more improvements left to make, then along came phase coatings, dielectic coatings, hydrophobic coatings, even flat fields, and don't forget eye relief big enough for glasses wearers and close focus distances great for many nature observers..... And every time you think that there is nothing left to invent in bins tech, just remember Mr Duell.

Fresnel lenses are a new development that may well be of interest. Keeps the weight and size of long telephoto lenses down. Stabilization is another big topic.

I am sure the middle price bins sector will develop futher, perhaps Tract will be able to get enough cash together to buy another small batch of 10x42s, and even more interesting is the thought that if this middle ground is so attractive from a business point of view, when will the next new company set up in competition with Tract and Maven and where will it be? USA or Europe or both?

Even more interesting is the question of how long these companies will survive in the marketplace.

Hermann

 

[mfunnell]

My guess is that Dennis is not a real person. He's a fantasy figure, an invention of the forum owners. Birdforum's binocular division would no be half as interesting without his posts. I like it. Keep it up!

Only 3 posts in (at the time of the quoted posting) and you've already nailed "the vibe" of the place. Very well done, indeed!

...Mike

Note: any Aussies around will know what I'm referring to by "the vibe"...