Death Of The Alpha? (2 Viewers)

[typo]

Nice to know that it's only taken us, a few others and KK about 15 years to get nearly as good as an alpha:

Imagic BGA (1999)
Imagic BGA PC – adds phase correction (2000)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF – adds aspheric eye lens (2002)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T – new eyecup and eyelens design (2003)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T Oasis – adds Oasis prism coating (2005)
Imagic BGA SE – new rubber armouring (2007-2016)
Imagic BGA VHD - new rubber armouring, adds ED, adds oilphobic coating (Feb 2017-)

Et voila, the Tract Toric is born

Just my two cents.

Pete

Thanks for posting the prior history Pete. I knew the old Imagic well, so it will be interesting to see what what the updates bring to the table. Should give those on this side of the pond a flavour of what the fuss is about.

David

 

[jgraider]

Well, thats your opinion JG, and you are entitled to it, but you are making a value judgement about other folks' enjoyment and thats about as tenable as doing weight training standing on quicksand.

Lee

If it were not the case, you would see as many Z,L,S as you do all the others, and that's not the case. Maybe in your specific birding circles, but not in all markets combined.

 

[jgraider]

Sorry, I don't follow. I'm not speculating, but rather speaking from my own experiences on my own and with other birders in various settings/habitats around the world. I find that open settings are not as challenging for bins because FOV and focus are not so important--it's more just a matter of pointing the bin at the target (which is why I call it "rifle" birding). Yes, I've spent plenty of time viewing Scaled Quails. I'll admit, that since I'm primarily a "birder" vs. bird watcher, I'm more interested in IDs than in following a covey once I've made the "tick". Coveys of Scaled Quails don't contain associated species, unlike e.g. flocks of sparrows, warblers, waterfowl, finches, or the mixed flocks in tropical forests e.g. ant or fruit tree associated species, which may present themselves in brush and forest situations at close range (where focus is critical), and be darting in and out of view in lighting that may be very dappled/shaded, making bins useful for making IDs even of very close individuals. I tend to spend much more time working through birds in those situations, working through the many individuals to try to find those few individuals of the rare species in the mix. FOV and rapid focus allows for close-range scanning, and many birds may be best found in the bins first rather than with naked eyes. Not sure if "shot gun" birding would describe the approach, but it is more demanding of handling and optics.

--AP

Well you need to keep posting your revelations from your own personal experience, not speculating on how I view things, how I bird, etc. As I said, around a water hole in Africa I could find 20 different species at the same time, they weren't all sitting there stationary. Just accept it. My birding conditions may be more challenging that yours for all you know, especially since you aren't there with me. Know what I mean?

 

[maico]

It seems the Tract's are disrupting the market quite a lot. All the 10x42's are sold out till March. If you build a binocular that for most people are the equal of an alpha for 1/3 the price it will sell.

So how many do they sell then compared to Swarovski and Leica Worldwide ?
I expect the mid-price Japanese made Zeiss Conquest and Leica Trinovid HD sales dwarf the 2 companies you mention.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/2016-binocular-test-we-test-17-full-and-mid-size-binos

There seem to be a surprising number of dealers selling alpha binoculars in the UK. I wonder if in per capita terms sales are higher than the US.

 

[Pileatus]

One thing missing from this discussion is the simple-to-determine comfort factor a particular bin delivers. I've tried and used a lot of bins and it doesn't take me long to evaluate overall viewing comfort. Many look great at first blush only to pale after a few minutes of use...most likely due to aging eyes with near zero toleration for any and all shortcomings. Some won't keep the barrels in sync, others have soft distracting edges and then there's the "what the heck am I seeing" phenomenon I can neither isolate or tolerate. Many have crappy eyecups, shallow eye relief, obvious CA and sloppy bridges. Others are pretty well constructed, have great stable views but they still don't deliver what my brain wants. My rejection list, for the record, includes several so-called alphas.

I won't bird if I'm fighting the optic. I'll be fiddling with the optic, wasting precious time. Since I'm running out of time I look for the best view I can find, get out my wallet and pay the going rate. Maybe a Tract or Maven would suffice; I simply can't say. What I can say is I will never purchase a binocular with the following: (1) a 58mm IPD or higher, (2) a narrowish FOV, (3) a CCW near-to-far focus or one with soft edges.

There will always be alphas (i.e. the best of class). Labels will change, rankings will fluctuate and people will continue to vote with their pocketbooks.
Happy New Year. B

 

[Troubador]

So how many do they sell then compared to Swarovski and Leica Worldwide ?

'All the 10x42's are sold out till March'. QUOTE Dennis

What this means is they didn't have the cash to fund a continuous availability of this model. They bought the batch size they could afford or dare risk to put on the shelf. Now its gone and they are having to wait for their turn in the production programme.

This isn't particularly impressive is it?

But its no disgrace either. Good luck to them.

Lee

 

[jgraider]

'All the 10x42's are sold out till March'. QUOTE Dennis

What this means is they didn't have the cash to fund a continuous availability of this model. They bought the batch size they could afford or dare risk to put on the shelf. Now its gone and they are having to wait for their turn in the production programme.

This isn't particularly impressive is it?

But its no disgrace either. Good luck to them.

Lee

How do you know this? Did you call and ask them?

Is this the same reason the EDG is backordered so often here in the US?

 

[[email protected]]

Never tried a Tract or Maven, but I do have an SV, I say the Meopta is pretty damn close to the SV, which is the whole point of your thread, then you post crap like this saying the Meopta is nowhere near a Tract !

You really are full of it.

That is my opinion and I have compared the two. I have never been impressed with any of the Meopta's. I just don't like the ergonomics and the optics never worked good for me. If you like them fine. I am not full of it because I don't care for them. That is my opinion.

 

[[email protected]]

What Alex is driving at is that there is more to good bins than whether or not you can 'see something in one and not in another'. Although I could point out that with Tract's 8x42 FOV at 377ft and Maven's 8x42 at 388ft there is every chance with a Zeiss SF (444ft) you could see something that you wouldn't see through the other two.

The whole package that is part optical, part mechanical and part personal interaction means some bins feel 'right' for you and some don't. This can happen with mid-priced bins, but just as easily with top priced alphas too.
If folks enjoy their bins they are getting value for money.

Lee

You really think 40 more feet of FOV is going to let you see something that you couldn't in the smaller FOV? I am not so sure. I have never missed something because of a slightly smaller FOV because you can just pan more more. Interesting theory though.

 

[[email protected]]

So how many do they sell then compared to Swarovski and Leica Worldwide ?
I expect the mid-price Japanese made Zeiss Conquest and Leica Trinovid HD sales dwarf the 2 companies you mention.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/2016-binocular-test-we-test-17-full-and-mid-size-binos

There seem to be a surprising number of dealers selling alpha binoculars in the UK. I wonder if in per capita terms sales are higher than the US.

The big three would have the advantage of selling worldwide but I bet Tract will sell a LOT of binoculars if they are very close in quality to the alpha's for 1/3 the price. Not too MANY people can AFFORD two to three thousand dollars for an alpha but MANY will buy an excellent quality binocular at $650.00 especially in the US. We are value minded here and that is a HUGE difference in price.

 

[[email protected]]

One thing missing from this discussion is the simple-to-determine comfort factor a particular bin delivers. I've tried and used a lot of bins and it doesn't take me long to evaluate overall viewing comfort. Many look great at first blush only to pale after a few minutes of use...most likely due to aging eyes with near zero toleration for any and all shortcomings. Some won't keep the barrels in sync, others have soft distracting edges and then there's the "what the heck am I seeing" phenomenon I can neither isolate or tolerate. Many have crappy eyecups, shallow eye relief, obvious CA and sloppy bridges. Others are pretty well constructed, have great stable views but they still don't deliver what my brain wants. My rejection list, for the record, includes several so-called alphas.

I won't bird if I'm fighting the optic. I'll be fiddling with the optic, wasting precious time. Since I'm running out of time I look for the best view I can find, get out my wallet and pay the going rate. Maybe a Tract or Maven would suffice; I simply can't say. What I can say is I will never purchase a binocular with the following: (1) a 58mm IPD or higher, (2) a narrowish FOV, (3) a CCW near-to-far focus or one with soft edges.

There will always be alphas (i.e. the best of class). Labels will change, rankings will fluctuate and people will continue to vote with their pocketbooks.
Happy New Year. B

"I won't bird if I'm fighting the optic. I'll be fiddling with the optic, wasting precious time."

That is exactly why I like the Tract's and Maven's. With my Swarovski I was fighting the focus, RB, glare and smaller exit pupil. With the Tract and Maven I have NO problems and they are easier to use. NO PROBLEMS!

 

[RobMorane]

Here are Maven and Tract's warranties.

Warranty Registration
UNCONDITIONAL LIFETIME WARRANTY

I'm not that impressed, Vortex is doing the same....
But I do wonder one thing though...

How Tract is going to manage their SO GREAT "Unconditional Lifetime Warranty" if they are out of stock of their own product?

Just asking...

 

[Pileatus]

"I won't bird if I'm fighting the optic. I'll be fiddling with the optic, wasting precious time."

That is exactly why I like the Tract's and Maven's. With my Swarovski I was fighting the focus, RB, glare and smaller exit pupil. With the Tract and Maven I have NO problems and they are easier to use. NO PROBLEMS!

Which Swarovski?

 

[jan van daalen]

Here are Maven and Tract's warranties.

Warranty Registration
UNCONDITIONAL LIFETIME WARRANTY

I'm not that impressed, Vortex is doing the same....
But I do wonder one thing though...

How Tract is going to manage their SO GREAT "Unconditional Lifetime Warranty" if they are out of stock of their own product?

Just asking...

That is one thing and/but down here in Europe the warranty, given by the brand, has to be followed up by the dealer. This means that the dealer/seller gives the warranty and has to "deal" with the brand to get the promised warranty. When the brand (for example ZenRay) doesn't answer the phone or the brand changed their representation to another firm it is end of story.
Unconditional lifetime warranty on long term is Marketing BS.

Jan

 

[Troubador]

How do you know this? Did you call and ask them?

Is this the same reason the EDG is backordered so often here in the US?

Hi JG

No I didn't call them.
They state on their website that they have sold out of the 10x and it will not be available until the next production slot in April. Ergo they haven't got continuous availability. Ask yourself why.

Like I said its no disgrace.

I have no idea about Nikon and fail to see the relevance.

Lee

 

[Troubador]

You really think 40 more feet of FOV is going to let you see something that you couldn't in the smaller FOV? I am not so sure. I have never missed something because of a slightly smaller FOV because you can just pan more more. Interesting theory though.

Hi Den

The field of view of a pair of bins isn't a straight line 1,000 yds away it is a circle with a diameter of 1,000 yds. This means if you calculate the area of the view of the Maven and of the SF you will find that the SF's FOV is 31% bigger, and its 38.7% bigger than the Tract. This is not trivial. Sure you can pan more and catch a lot of stuff but when you are panning left you aint seeing what is happening on the right and vice versa. If you want to see the landscape or the sky or the sea a big FOV is just better and when warblers or dragonflies are doing aerobatics nearby a bigger FOV just means you are more likely to find them when you lift your bins up to your eyes.

And no, FOV is not the only thing which is important about a bino, but here is one way an alpha can outsee some all mid-priced bins. Of course next year or so maybe Tract or Maven will catch up and thats great if they do.

If.

Lee

 

[jgraider]

That is one thing and/but down here in Europe the warranty, given by the brand, has to be followed up by the dealer. This means that the dealer/seller gives the warranty and has to "deal" with the brand to get the promised warranty. When the brand (for example ZenRay) doesn't answer the phone or the brand changed their representation to another firm it is end of story.
Unconditional lifetime warranty on long term is Marketing BS.

Jan

Try telling that to Leupold and Vortex, especially Leupold since they've been around "forever".

Here in the US once the binocular is sold by the retailer, the consumer deals directly with the manufacturer on warranty issues. Unless, of course, you're one of the many Leica owners who has gotten screwed and tattooed by Leica USA. CameralandNY has had to step in a straighten things out numerous times in situations like that.

 

[jgraider]

Hi JG

No I didn't call them.
They state on their website that they have sold out of the 10x and it will not be available until the next production slot in April. Ergo they haven't got continuous availability. Ask yourself why.

Like I said its no disgrace.

I have no idea about Nikon and fail to see the relevance.

Lee

I was curious if you were making the assessment of "no inventory means no cash" as you said, that's all. IF that's the case then it would be the same for every manufacturer was my point.

Since this was their maiden voyage (Tract), it seems intelligent that they would buy a certain amount of stock to see how the market accepts their products, then adjust from there. That's what I'd do as well, and bet you would too. Out of stock and backordered doesn't mean out of cash necessarily.

 

[james holdsworth]

If it were not the case, you would see as many Z,L,S as you do all the others, and that's not the case. Maybe in your specific birding circles, but not in all markets combined.

I actually do see this, in any birding site I go to - very unscientific - just like judgments based on hunt camp stats....

Jan has told us time and again that the great majority of his sales are alphas, to safari trekkers. Ask him if they have been switching to Mavens.

 

[Troubador]

I was curious if you were making the assessment of "no inventory means no cash" as you said, that's all. IF that's the case then it would be the same for every manufacturer was my point.

Since this was their maiden voyage (Tract), it seems intelligent that they would buy a certain amount of stock to see how the market accepts their products, then adjust from there. That's what I'd do as well, and bet you would too. Out of stock and backordered doesn't mean out of cash necessarily.

I agree JG which is why I made my remark about Tract 'daring to put' only a certain amount into stock but it wouldn't be unusual at all for a young company like this to not have the cash to do everything it would like to do, all at the same time. I was really countering Dennis's unbridled enthusiasm and optimism which interprets the stockout situation as a huge success but is more likely to be down to the caution you mention or the lack of funds to do everything that I suggested. Or both.

Nikon USA undoubtedly has to answer to the parent company for its financial performance and I am sure that inventory values are amongst their key indicators, so they may be cautious in their ordering of SKUs. There could be many reasons for EDG being back-ordered and some of them would have no bearing on the start up of a young company like Tract.

Lee