Death Of The Alpha? (1 Viewer)

[[email protected]]

I guess we should welcome the new middle priced brands that give people great optics at lower prices.
Their will always be those of us, when we can afford it, that will chose the best glass because of optical performance and ergonomics.
Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Bently, Lambo and others sell lots of bespoke cars to individuals who value a particular trait they can not find on a Chevy, Ford or Toyota, top tier watch companies sell lots of their watches to customers who value certain traits of those watches, stoves and fridges come in many price and feature points, stereo components, people can spend insane amounts for cables that make a certain component sound better, so why shouldn't optics be the same.
Some of us have eye problems that are helped in certain instances by choosing a particular glass which just might happen to be an Alpha where there are others don't need that help and can get along with different choice.
Denco sounds like the "social engineers" of the old Soviet Union who tried to get everyone to buy and use the same products.............."everyone with like
prune ice cream or you will get no ice cream at all".
Lets cheer for the variety of choices from the $100.00 dollar per pair 6x30 porro's to the very top of the line Alpha's.
Buy what you can afford and like and go birding.
Rant over.
Art

I am not really bending anybodies arm to buy a Tract or Maven. Buy whatever you want. But if you could buy a Ferrari for the price of a Honda would you buy one? A Tract or Maven binocular will perform optically and mechanically just like a Zeiss or Swarovski and they look and operate just like one. What the point of this thread is things are CHANGING! There has NEVER been roof prism binoculars of this QUALITY for these kind of prices NEVER! My point is to get exceptional optics you don't HAVE to spend an arm and a leg to get an alpha binocular anymore. As you said there might be some people who have "alpha eyes' and see a huge difference in an alpha binocular and a Maven or need an alpha for some special reason like diopter range or focus direction or getting girlfriends but for the average Joe it is not worth it anymore to pay two to three times for almost no improvement in the binocular and if there is ANY it is VERY small and incremental. That is the point of this thread. I am predicting "The Death of the Alpha".

 

[Pileatus]

I am not really bending anybodies arm to buy a Tract or Maven. Buy whatever you want. But if you could buy a Ferrari for the price of a Honda would you buy one? A Tract or Maven binocular will perform optically and mechanically just like a Zeiss or Swarovski and they look and operate just like one. What the point of this thread is things are CHANGING! There has NEVER been roof prism binoculars of this QUALITY for these kind of prices NEVER! My point is to get exceptional optics you don't HAVE to spend an arm and a leg to get an alpha binocular anymore. As you said there might be some people who have "alpha eyes' and see a huge difference in an alpha binocular and a Maven or need an alpha for some special reason like diopter range or focus direction or getting girlfriends but for the average Joe it is not worth it anymore to pay two to three times for almost no improvement in the binocular and if there is ANY it is VERY small and incremental. That is the point of this thread. I am predicting "The Death of the Alpha".

How does a new alpha spell the death of the alpha?

 

[chill6x6]

Interesting. You have all the latest top glass and you prefer the Zeiss 7x42 FL? 7x is nice for depth of field, BIG exit pupil and less shakes and in most cases a big FOV. They are very comfortable binoculars to use if the 7x magnification gives you enough detail. Let me ask you this Chuck. Is there any condition where you feel you would like a little more magnification? Say open country? Distant birds of prey? Or does 7x give you in your opinion as much detail as an 8x?

7X42 vs 8X42
I'd say the amount of detail would be equivalent for all practical purposes...ie BIRDING. I wouldn't have believed it until I tried it. I have no doubt in my mind that in MOST instances, I'm a better, faster birder with the SLC or FL 7X42. I think most people get 8X because they only have a binocular or two and are basically splitting the difference between 7X and 10X and certainly don't want to be stuck with a 10X ALL the time so they go with 8X which of course is still better than a 10X all the time.

10X...
YES there are conditions where I really like a 10X42. This time of year is an example. The leaves are gone and one can see a greater distance. Also waterfowl are in plentiful supply and you can't get too close without spooking. Down at the coast no doubt a 10X makes a lot of sense for gulls and shore birds. Sometimes I'll carry a 7X in front and a 10X to the side to reach for IF I need it to make myself feel better. But in most cases if a 7X or 8X won't do it...you're gonna have to break out a Kowa 88.

 

[[email protected]]

If the new alpha is 1/2 the price of the old alpha which one do you think well sell more? For some people that can see a difference in a Tract Toric and an alpha and they think the difference is worth twice the price they should buy the alpha but for a lot of people they are not going to see much difference between the two and the big price increase is not going to be worth it for them. That is why I think these newer Japanese binoculars like the Tract Toric and Maven B.2 are going to cut into alpha sales.

 

[[email protected]]

7X42 vs 8X42
I'd say the amount of detail would be equivalent for all practical purposes...ie BIRDING. I wouldn't have believed it until I tried it. I have no doubt in my mind that in MOST instances, I'm a better, faster birder with the SLC or FL 7X42. I think most people get 8X because they only have a binocular or two and are basically splitting the difference between 7X and 10X and certainly don't want to be stuck with a 10X ALL the time so they go with 8X which of course is still better than a 10X all the time.

10X...
YES there are conditions where I really like a 10X42. This time of year is an example. The leaves are gone and one can see a greater distance. Also waterfowl are in plentiful supply and you can't get too close without spooking. Down at the coast no doubt a 10X makes a lot of sense for gulls and shore birds. Sometimes I'll carry a 7X in front and a 10X to the side to reach for IF I need it to make myself feel better. But in most cases if a 7X or 8X won't do it...you're gonna have to break out a Kowa 88.

It is advantageous if like you can have multiple magnifications to choose from depending on the use. But you pretty much like the 7x for overall use which is probably a good choice.

 

[james holdsworth]

If the new alpha is 1/2 the price of the old alpha which one do you think well sell more? For some people that can see a difference in a Tract Toric and an alpha and they think the difference is worth twice the price they should buy the alpha but for a lot of people they are not going to see much difference between the two and the big price increase is not going to be worth it for them. That is why I think these newer Japanese binoculars like the Tract Toric and Maven B.2 are going to cut into alpha sales.

You keep pounding on about things being different now, and like you discovered it or something. As has been shown in this thread, many times, quality 2nd tier - sometimes equal to or even better than the very best / most expensive - have existed for decades.

The examples of which have been presented here numerous times but you chose to ignore them. Any manner of porro were always better than their much more expensive roof equivalents until Phase-coating was invented in 1988. Somehow, none of that killed the alpha binocular - even though its' performance at the time really lagged the cheaper porro. In the 80's, the Zeiss 10x40 was the bin to have and I saw them everywhere. It mattered not that the optical performance was easily bettered by many, much cheaper binoculars - people wanted the Zeiss.

 

[Theo98]

If the new alpha is 1/2 the price of the old alpha which one do you think well sell more? For some people that can see a difference in a Tract Toric and an alpha and they think the difference is worth twice the price they should buy the alpha but for a lot of people they are not going to see much difference between the two and the big price increase is not going to be worth it for them. That is why I think these newer Japanese binoculars like the Tract Toric and Maven B.2 are going to cut into alpha sales.

Dennis,

Almost 650 post later (1\2 yours) and you keep saying the same thing, over and over. I'm relatively new to high-end optics and birding, but your original post summation that quality mid-tier binoculars are going to kill the "alphas" is Nothing New! As long as Any Commodity has a Cheap-Mid Priced(good value)-Top End(cost no object) selective range of choices, the general buying public will support all levels...Including All selections in Optics! I kind of explained it HERE, but maybe the Common-Law-of-Business by John Ruskin can better explain what I was trying to say!

Your Post#1 statement\opinion that Tract and Maven offer excellent "Dollar Values" is\has been clearly understood...again, really nothing New here as far as binocular\performance\value revelations. Thank you (and others) for calling that fact to our attention, but to me (IMHO), it seems it's time to move on!

FWIW, just my .02 cents rant,

Ted

 

[Pileatus]

If the new alpha is 1/2 the price of the old alpha which one do you think well sell more? For some people that can see a difference in a Tract Toric and an alpha and they think the difference is worth twice the price they should buy the alpha but for a lot of people they are not going to see much difference between the two and the big price increase is not going to be worth it for them. That is why I think these newer Japanese binoculars like the Tract Toric and Maven B.2 are going to cut into alpha sales.

Stop confusing value with quality. Many people will pay 2X in price for a .2X perceived increase in quality. It's the way the world works.

 

[Steve C]

If the Maven and Tract lines cut into anybody's sales, it won't be alpha sales. They will carve out an increased share of the quality mid price segment.

There will always be the top tier segment...for the many reasons outlined. The alpha class is pretty well defined by quality and history.

There will always be the mid tier segment...for the many reasons outlined. There will be a continual reshuffling of the mid tier segment with occasional appearances of relative newcomers like Tract and Maven. The increase on quality will drive success or failure here. Some labels and models will fade away in this reshuffle.

People will buy one or the other based on their disposable income or personal preferences.

 

[Troubador]

If the Maven and Tract lines cut into anybody's sales, it won't be alpha sales. They will carve out an increased share of the quality mid price segment.

There will always be the top tier segment...for the many reasons outlined. The alpha class is pretty well defined by quality and history.

There will always be the mid tier segment...for the many reasons outlined. There will be a continual reshuffling of the mid tier segment with occasional appearances of relative newcomers like Tract and Maven. The increase on quality will drive success or failure here. Some labels and models will fade away in this reshuffle.

People will buy one or the other based on their disposable income or personal preferences.

Thanks Steve, you have summed it up neatly so we didn't really need the last 650 posts did we :-O

Lee

 

[jremmons]

Stop confusing value with quality. Many people will pay 2X in price for a .2X perceived increase in quality. It's the way the world works.

Yep. It doesn't matter what it costs, if people think it is an improvement, either in real terms or just due to the brand name, people will pay top dollar. This is true in my other hobbies, hunting, computers, and cycling. While the Zeiss FL, Benelli Nova, Scott Solace, and i5-6500 I utilize offer probably 95% of the performance of top of the line models, some people will gladly pay 2-7x the price to eek out that last 5% performance boost or to get a more prestigious branding on the side of their item.

It is up to the individual to decide what they want. I'd gladly own a pair of Zeiss HTs but they are just a bit out of my budget price range. Same with an i7, Trek Domane, Benelli SBE II, etc... But, I also don't feel hindered at all by that slight dip in performance (if there is a dip at all).

I do wonder as disposable income in most "middle-class" families decreases and quality of the mid-priced items increase if the actual cost of top-of-the-line items will decrease, but then innovations - which are typically found in the top of the line items and then trickle down as the years pass by - would also likely stagnate.

 

[[email protected]]

Stop confusing value with quality. Many people will pay 2X in price for a .2X perceived increase in quality. It's the way the world works.

How many can afford 2x the price for a small incremental increase in performance? Some people surely can but the vast majority of people just can't afford two to three thousand binoculars but they want excellent binoculars. That is where Tract and Maven fill the void. WAY more binoculars are sold at the $500 to $1000 price point than the $2000 to $3000 price point.

 

[[email protected]]

You keep pounding on about things being different now, and like you discovered it or something. As has been shown in this thread, many times, quality 2nd tier - sometimes equal to or even better than the very best / most expensive - have existed for decades.

The examples of which have been presented here numerous times but you chose to ignore them. Any manner of porro were always better than their much more expensive roof equivalents until Phase-coating was invented in 1988. Somehow, none of that killed the alpha binocular - even though its' performance at the time really lagged the cheaper porro. In the 80's, the Zeiss 10x40 was the bin to have and I saw them everywhere. It mattered not that the optical performance was easily bettered by many, much cheaper binoculars - people wanted the Zeiss.

I answered this before. There have always been PORRO'S around(Nikon SE, EII, Habicht) that have been very close in performance to the alpha roofs for way less money BUT this is the FIRST time I have seen quality roof's that can actually challenge the alpha roofs for way less money. That is the difference.

 

[[email protected]]

If the Maven and Tract lines cut into anybody's sales, it won't be alpha sales. They will carve out an increased share of the quality mid price segment.

There will always be the top tier segment...for the many reasons outlined. The alpha class is pretty well defined by quality and history.

There will always be the mid tier segment...for the many reasons outlined. There will be a continual reshuffling of the mid tier segment with occasional appearances of relative newcomers like Tract and Maven. The increase on quality will drive success or failure here. Some labels and models will fade away in this reshuffle.

People will buy one or the other based on their disposable income or personal preferences.

I don't know about that. I personally am a perfect example. My alpha's are gone and are replaced by Maven's and Tracts. If you can get an equivalent product for less money people will buy the cheaper product even if they can afford the pricier product. Then you can spend the money you saved on something else. Why do you think Walmart is so successful? They offer the same brands and identical products for less money.

 

[dalat]

I personally am a perfect example.

You think you're a good example of how average binocular buyers behave? A little bit out of touch with reality, perhaps?

 

[[email protected]]

My point is if you can get the same product for less money which product would you buy?

 

[Pileatus]

I don't know about that. I personally am a perfect example. My alpha's are gone and are replaced by Maven's and Tracts. If you can get an equivalent product for less money people will buy the cheaper product even if they can afford the pricier product. Then you can spend the money you saved on something else. Why do you think Walmart is so successful? They offer the same brands and identical products for less money.

You're suffering the seductive and deadly syndrome of assuming others will behave exactly as you do. They don't and they won't. :eek!::-C

 

[james holdsworth]

I answered this before. There have always been PORRO'S around(Nikon SE, EII, Habicht) that have been very close in performance to the alpha roofs for way less money BUT this is the FIRST time I have seen quality roof's that can actually challenge the alpha roofs for way less money. That is the difference.

Hurray! I'm off Dennis's ignore list. In the words of Borat, ''great success!''

 

[[email protected]]

You're suffering the seductive and deadly syndrome of assuming others will behave exactly as you do. They don't and they won't. :eek!::-C

I realize that. There are some people that money is no object and they feel they want what they perceive as the best so they buy an alpha. I think most people given the choice between two items which have a huge price differential will have to see the difference in value in the more expensive item. My point is are the alpha's really worth an extra 2 to 3 thousand dollars over a Maven or Tract. Too some people yes. Too the majority no.

 

[james holdsworth]

I answered this before. There have always been PORRO'S around(Nikon SE, EII, Habicht) that have been very close in performance to the alpha roofs for way less money BUT this is the FIRST time I have seen quality roof's that can actually challenge the alpha roofs for way less money. That is the difference.

Conquest HD, Vortex Viper, Kowa, Meopta, Opticron, Kite, Bushnell Elite, etc. All near alpha's, all potential alpha slayers...yet the alphas persist. Note also all of these brands will outsell any Tract or Maven simply because people have heard of them, can see / test them and they can buy them at a brick-and-mortar location. [regardless of comparative quality]

Sure, we know about the Mavens and Tracts because of Steve and Dennis, but the rest of the world has never, and will never hear of them, unless they change their business model. Still, it seems to me as most of these T/M models are simply rebrands / reskins of existing designs, many of which are likely included in the list of brands above.