Eagle Owls in Yorkshire?? (1 Viewer)

[barry potter]

wolfbirder,
I think the answer to the original question is plain to see. Yes there are eagle owls in Yorkshire, the debate now is from where do the originate. I guess this could go on and on .
Merry Christmas
Barry :king:

 

[London Birder]

and I'd say the prudent answer to that would have to be 'no one knows the origins of every individual bird but there sure seems to be a few escapes out there'

 

[Jester]

they could always trap the EEO and see if they are fitted with "closed" rings (a legal requirement for people to own captive owls although im not sure how long it has been that way) if they are not rung then they are wild and if they are close rung then there will be some kind of traceability and if fitted with a split ring then there will be traceability for that as well.


If Jester ever escapes and is found he is easily traced back to the breeder who issued the A10 certificate and also the IBR who have him on record too.

 

[Robert L Jarvis]

For heavens sake the birds are here what do their origins matter. If you want to take the view about introduced birds or escapees stop ticking Pheasants, Red-legged Partridge, White-tailed Sea Eagles to name a few.

 

[London Birder]

not quite as simplistic as that unless you confine it to merely ticking a bird

 

[dbradnum]

For heavens sake the birds are here what do their origins matter.

Argghhh! Read the thread, please... it's been so well explained, time and time again.

To give you a head start, it has absolutely nothing to do with ticking them or not.

 

[wolfbirder]

and actually i didnt make it clear. i made the first post - it really asks if there is any chance of getting to see them, not questioning their obvious existence. i dont want a tick - i want to see them in the wild thats all.

 

[Robert L Jarvis]

If you just want to see the birds fine, but what were all those threads for about escapees, removing the owls, hunting.

It is not I who needs a head start.

 

[dbradnum]

If you just want to see the birds fine, but what were all those threads for about escapees, removing the owls, hunting.

:flowers: Apologies for being a bit blunt first time round - your post just appeared to be rather typical of a common mentality on this thread, along the lines of "Eagle Owls are here, it doesn't matter if they're wild or not, and we should leave them alone" (many adding the final justification "because I like them" or words to that effect).

If that doesn't reflect your view, then what follows is irrelevant - further apologies! However, if that is (roughly) your opinion, then there's a great deal of discussion on the thread explaining why it's arguably flawed from a conservation point of view - that's why I suggested that you might not have looked through it. There is certainly discussion here that makes it clear why the Eagle Owls' origin does matter.

To address your three points in particular:

It does matter if the population being established in the UK is from escaped or wild stock... because this determines whether they are deemed to be part of the UK's avifauna (and be added to the official list, and receive the protection that this would entail).

The comments about potentially removing the owls are also justified. If the birds are not accepted to be wild, and if the appropriate conservation bodies believe that the owls may have an adverse effect on native species' populations, then removing the population (not necessarily by killing them) would be a viable and, some would say, sensible option. Compare the situation to Mink: their population developed from releases and escapes from fur farms, and they have subsequently had a very undesirable effect on native species' populations (notably Water Voles). The vast majority of conservationists would be only too happy if they could be removed from the UK's wildlife... but it's pretty much too late. We should avoid getting into the same situation with any other escaped species gone wild.

To end on a point of agreement - I don't quite know why hunting came into the debate either!

Hope I didn't put your back up too much first time round... with any luck this second post has been a bit more constructive and helpful!

Cheers,

 

[Keith Reeder]

Very nice precis of the salient points, David.

 

[breffni]

is anybody aware of data (i mean published peer-reviewed data as opposed to anecdotal reports, of which i can find many) on the impact that eagle owls have had to date?

 

[Robert L Jarvis]

Thank you Dave, well laid out with out the emotion of previous threads like someone categorising everyone as muppets.

The existence of these Birds has been known for some time, noticeably the RSPB has been very quiet on origins. But what do you do kill the original pair and leave the offspring or kill the whole lot by chasing EOs all over the country. Where do you stop and if so at what point do you start regarding them as birds to go on the UK list.

I do agree with you in that all and sundry should not be released into the countryside but should we be reestablishing previously breeding birds by introductions whether by captive breeding or caught wild stock. If birds cease to breed or reside here is that not part of the evolution of the UK countryside and the status quo should remain?

Apologies here being a bit of a devil's advocate on this point.

 

[Strandman]

:

It does matter if the population being established in the UK is from escaped or wild stock... because this determines whether they are deemed to be part of the UK's avifauna (and be added to the official list, and receive the protection that this would entail).

,

I hate to intrude-especially as the ever vigilant Keith R has given this summary his blessing and to date I think I have been dependably agreeing with him- but this doesn't sound quite right to me.

Haven't we managed to establish through this thread that the EO protection derives from EU Law and so applies to the UK population irrespective of whether it derives from escaped or wild stock; irrespective of whether it was ever naturally here; and irrespective of what category it has on the official list etc.?

The only exception we have identified is the originally escaped individuals, if they can be identified and they survive. They are exempted from protection.

Any future, broader exception extending to offspring hatched in the wild would have to be justified as a derogation under EU law.

Apologies if I am flogging a dead horse here or doing anything else irritating.

 

[Edward woodwood]

is anybody aware of data (i mean published peer-reviewed data as opposed to anecdotal reports, of which i can find many) on the impact that eagle owls have had to date?

the world is littered with examples after the introduced species in question (whatever it is, from snails to rats to snakes etc) becomes established

the idea is NOT to let it happen. there won't be those type of reports until it is largerly academic and we have a huge problem on our hands

EO are doing very well outside of the UK, are of very questionable UK origin anyway and do we need to create a problem that will draw even more funds away from areas they are desparately needed?

anyone wanting to see these escaped owls can do so easily if it floats yer boat... just check around other forums

 

[wolfbirder]

which forums Tim? Can someone PM me if worried about the info coming on here?

 

[dbradnum]

Haven't we managed to establish through this thread that the EO protection derives from EU Law and so applies to the UK population irrespective of whether it derives from escaped or wild stock; irrespective of whether it was ever naturally here; and irrespective of what category it has on the official list etc.?

The only exception we have identified is the originally escaped individuals, if they can be identified and they survive. They are exempted from protection.

Hi there Whiteback,

You're absolutely right! - I'd completely forgotten this point being raised. Post 362 explains the EU law situation.

So (going back to the discussion with Robert), the question of "does it matter whether the birds are escaped or wild?" does not determine what protection the birds get. However, I think that it's still a relevant question to address, since it will probably determine the likely course of action for conservation bodies (like the BTO and RSPB). If the owls were accepted as wild, then I would imagine such organisations would have no pressing need to do anything other than protect the birds from persecution. On the other hand, if they're deemed to be escapes, then (again, I'm guessing) they will monitor the EOs more closely, in the manner that befits an alien species to the UK. I think that last point is roughly where we are in reality - watching carefully for a while to see what the British Eagle Owl population is feeding on, where it's spreading to, and how other species are being affected.

 

[Keith Reeder]

Hi WB,

yep, good catch there!



Generally, origin is a factor to be taken into account when considering the fate of a species in these circumstances, though in the context of EO it does seem to have been rendered moot - at least as far as the offspring are concerned.

I imagine that David would be right about the origin of the species still having a relevance to the degree and type of monitoring - if only because derogation from the legislation is still an option should monitoring prove that the species in question was a significant threat - and I would still expect origin to have relevance to decisions made in that context (though I'm speculating there).

 

[barry potter]

the world is littered with examples after the introduced species in question (whatever it is, from snails to rats to snakes etc) becomes established

the idea is NOT to let it happen. there won't be those type of reports until it is largerly academic and we have a huge problem on our hands

EO are doing very well outside of the UK, are of very questionable UK origin anyway and do we need to create a problem that will draw even more funds away from areas they are desparately needed?

anyone wanting to see these escaped owls can do so easily if it floats yer boat... just check around other forums

tim can you tell us what other forums you mean . there some of us out here who would like to see these birds.
regards Barry

 

[barry potter]

just an afterthought, I have just read on the hawk conservancy thread that E Os have an exoected lifespan of 12 to 15 years in the wild . the yorkie pair have bred for the last ten years so how much longer can we expect them to breed or survive. Also will they be replaced by younger birds . As I said just an afterthought.
regards Barry :smoke:

 

[Strandman]

I imagine that David would be right about the origin of the species still having a relevance to the degree and type of monitoring - if only because derogation from the legislation is still an option should monitoring prove that the species in question was a significant threat - and I would still expect origin to have relevance to decisions made in that context (though I'm speculating there).

We are back in sync!

On your last point- the grounds for a derogation are set out in the W B Directive and harm to other species is expressly set out as a potential ground for derogation.

Non-natural origin is not set out as a ground for derogation. This is because the WB Directive operates at species level- it does not care where an individual bird has originated from, so long as it is of a species which occurs naturally somewhere in the EU.

But I agree that if serious harm is established in UK and that is put forward as ground for a derogation, probable non-natural origin of the EOs in the UK might be a factor in assessing the acceptability or otherwise of the harm.