I agree, last season was a total disaster for a lot of raptors, lets hope for better this year. Kites nest building here
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Goshawks (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JustinG
- Start date
I agree, last season was a total disaster for a lot of raptors, lets hope for better this year. Kites nest building here
Firecrest5
Well-known member
Hi Minto
May I ask how you knew they were taken by/for falconers? Many post about chicks stolen for falconry but i dont think anyone has ever posted how they know this. Wales, I know, have had issues with raptor thefts.
Did you report the thefts to the police? If so, what action did they take?
Taking a peregrine two weeks before fledging seems odd, they would be too large to put a closed ring on therefore could not be laundered into the falconry system without attracting huge attention from the authorities.
Regards
F5.
May I ask how you knew they were taken by/for falconers? Many post about chicks stolen for falconry but i dont think anyone has ever posted how they know this. Wales, I know, have had issues with raptor thefts.
Did you report the thefts to the police? If so, what action did they take?
Taking a peregrine two weeks before fledging seems odd, they would be too large to put a closed ring on therefore could not be laundered into the falconry system without attracting huge attention from the authorities.
Regards
F5.
Last edited:
Firecrest , I know they were taken for falconers because the following year that site and several others were robbed by a dickhead from Zimbabwe who was caught with the eggs in an airport just prior to boarding a flight to the Arab emirates.He admitted links to falconers I also know this as we regularly liaise with the police wildlife liaison officers.As for the taking of the young falcons , it WAS done for falconers.As for what happened the tw@ got jail time As for attracting attention from the authorities, you obviously have more faith in the authorities abilities to detect these illegal birds than the people who take and keep them. When pigeon fanciers attack nests its usually at the egg stage, why else would they let four young falcons be fed( mostly on RP) during the season when they could do the falcons at the egg stage.Not a lot of other interested parties left methinks Let me make one thing clear I haven't got a problem with falconers or pigeon fanciers in general , just the tw@s that break our wildlife laws.
Last edited:
Firecrest5
Well-known member
Hi Minto
Thanks for your response.
Would you not say that Lendrum was a particular case, rather than the norm? He was a known international wildlife criminal, rather than a falconer from down the road. Do you know what sport the chap who saved the eggs and hatched 11 of the 14 eggs out is heavily involved in?
There are CITES paperwork requirements that need to be complied with regarding chicks, anything that comes up leftfield should, and usually is, investigated....even where the issue is down to their own incompetence (refer R lupton case). ask Nevin Hunter if he would show interest in any such paperwork discrepencies.
Let me also make something clear, any person, falconer or not breaking wildlife laws should face the full wrath of the courts. I just object to the view that if a chick gets to 4 weeks old and suddenly disappears from the nest then IT IS at the hands of falconers, recent webcam revelations clearly demonstrate otherwise, and I just cant understand the total reluctance of many to accept that this is the case.
Regarding your "not a lot of interested parties left", i think you left out the major one....Mother Nature.
I've seen lack of food, bad weather, stoats, foxes, buzzards, pine marten etc all take good sized young from nests when you would have thought them safe.
Regards
F5
Thanks for your response.
Would you not say that Lendrum was a particular case, rather than the norm? He was a known international wildlife criminal, rather than a falconer from down the road. Do you know what sport the chap who saved the eggs and hatched 11 of the 14 eggs out is heavily involved in?
There are CITES paperwork requirements that need to be complied with regarding chicks, anything that comes up leftfield should, and usually is, investigated....even where the issue is down to their own incompetence (refer R lupton case). ask Nevin Hunter if he would show interest in any such paperwork discrepencies.
Let me also make something clear, any person, falconer or not breaking wildlife laws should face the full wrath of the courts. I just object to the view that if a chick gets to 4 weeks old and suddenly disappears from the nest then IT IS at the hands of falconers, recent webcam revelations clearly demonstrate otherwise, and I just cant understand the total reluctance of many to accept that this is the case.
Regarding your "not a lot of interested parties left", i think you left out the major one....Mother Nature.
I've seen lack of food, bad weather, stoats, foxes, buzzards, pine marten etc all take good sized young from nests when you would have thought them safe.
Regards
F5
Rob Smallwood
Well-known member
Of course there are other threats to breeding raptors.
The point is that it doesn't make sense to increase the likelihood of of two of these (gamekeepers and nest robbers) by publicising potentially sensitive sites on a public forum.
The point is that it doesn't make sense to increase the likelihood of of two of these (gamekeepers and nest robbers) by publicising potentially sensitive sites on a public forum.
Firecrest, whilst I agree that Lendrum was an international wildlife threat,. how do you think he got to know about nests in the back end of nowhere?
Without going into specifics it was because he has links to falconers in the Rhondda valleys. I appreciate it was a falconer that hatched them out, but then again they woud have hatched out under the Perry if they had been left alone
As for mother nature, I agree at times, but the people I work with and i have more than enough experience to know when chicks have perished or been predated, rather than being nicked, the attitude of the parents in the days after removal can tell you a lot. The four falcons were nicked, in all probability Lendrum was active in South Wales for years, there are loads of documented cases where year after year eggs were taken, pigeon fanciers were thought to be the culprits , then when Lendrum was caught with eggs ...
atb
M
Last edited:
Firecrest5
Well-known member
unfortunately, they are currently felling around the area of two of the sites I monitor too.
Firecrest , contact the relevant authorities as I'm pretty sure they should not be felling now particularly around known schedule 1 sites.
We have the same trouble in Wales, if people don't pull them I'm sure they would be happy to cut trees all year long.
Goshawks may not lay until start of April but they would certainly have built or rebuilt nests so technically they are being disturbed.
stevo
Well-known member
Airborne Twitcher
Member
I went to New Fancy last Friday (15th), only saw a few Buzzard before the skies opened up and it spent the rest of the morning raining rather heavily. I was planning a trip tomorrow but weather forecast is for much of the same and more.....aaaargghhh
FalconBirder
Raptor Ethologist
Please tell us more about how you made these remarkable observations. Perhaps you've had at least some of them published and can provide us with references?
Firecrest5
Well-known member
i'll ignore the clear emphasis in your post and highlight a couple of examples for you.......
Lack of food - I filmed a buzzard nest last season. The local nests are only seeing two eggs/young. The parents were only bringing in baby rabbits, and not many of them, and one mole! One of the youngsters died at around 5 weeks of age and I found it fead in the nest - so not stolen by falconers or killed by gamekeepers.
Buzzard - Around 4 seasons ago, I observed a buzzard harrass a short eared owl nest that had been made in burnt heather for reasons unknown. Eventually it made it and broke/ate the eggs. I'm sure you have seen the footage of the buzzard taking the osprey chick.....if not on camera then that would have been blamed on what/whom?
Pine Marten - It is very well documented that at least one red kite nest has been robbed by a pine marten.
Will that do for now?
Lack of food - I filmed a buzzard nest last season. The local nests are only seeing two eggs/young. The parents were only bringing in baby rabbits, and not many of them, and one mole! One of the youngsters died at around 5 weeks of age and I found it fead in the nest - so not stolen by falconers or killed by gamekeepers.
Buzzard - Around 4 seasons ago, I observed a buzzard harrass a short eared owl nest that had been made in burnt heather for reasons unknown. Eventually it made it and broke/ate the eggs. I'm sure you have seen the footage of the buzzard taking the osprey chick.....if not on camera then that would have been blamed on what/whom?
Pine Marten - It is very well documented that at least one red kite nest has been robbed by a pine marten.
Will that do for now?
Last edited:
FalconBirder
Raptor Ethologist
The whole discussion on this thread has been about Goshawks and Peregrines, species that are particularly highly valued by austringers and falconers, respectively. And also species that are highly armed and adept at protecting themselves and their nestlings from natural predators (except man). So, very sorry, but I don't see any relevance whatsoever to the examples you've given. However, your answer has been highly revealing, so no further questions from me. Thanks.
Last edited:
Firecrest5
Well-known member
The post of mine that you wished to see "proof" of relate to all raptor species.
"Highly valued by austringers and falconers"? is that a straight lift from RSPB paraphenalia? What strange logic. The fact that austringers and falconers enjoy flying such species does not make them highly valued in the sense that they would steal them from nests. Does this logic mean that if you covet Ferrari cars that you would be highly tempted to steal one????
Do you actually know the price goshawks and peregrines can reach in falconry? Goshawk prices are so low now, comparatively, that I think you will find breeders releasing far more to the wild than even your imagined thefts by falconers.
Please provide proof, published if possible, of the widespread peregrine and goshawk thefts for falconry purposes you are aware of.
Thanks for your input.
"Highly valued by austringers and falconers"? is that a straight lift from RSPB paraphenalia? What strange logic. The fact that austringers and falconers enjoy flying such species does not make them highly valued in the sense that they would steal them from nests. Does this logic mean that if you covet Ferrari cars that you would be highly tempted to steal one????
Do you actually know the price goshawks and peregrines can reach in falconry? Goshawk prices are so low now, comparatively, that I think you will find breeders releasing far more to the wild than even your imagined thefts by falconers.
Please provide proof, published if possible, of the widespread peregrine and goshawk thefts for falconry purposes you are aware of.
Thanks for your input.
Last edited:
FalconBirder
Raptor Ethologist
Sorry F5 but your last post strongly suggests that you've made some wrong assumptions here.
As it happens, I fully support legal falconry and have many friends from that sphere of life. Some are so committed that they spend more time with their hawks than they do with their wives.
It is these individuals, not the RSPB, who have not only stated but also demonstrated to me in the hunting field why these two species (ie. Goshawks and Peregrines) are so highly valued as trained hawks. I feel extremely fortunate to have been invited out hawking with some truly skilled falconers and austringers, including one or two 100% genuine 'old school gentlemen' types who've never bought or sold a hawk in their lives.
The thrust of this thread is about Goshawks and where to go to observe them performing their fabulous aerial displays. I agree wholeheartedly with Rob and Robin and would urge extreme caution to anyone considering posting detailed locations, except in the case of the few well known and well protected sites.
Regrettably, Goshawks (and Peregrines) are at real risk from a range of human related pressures, eg. renegade Pigeon Racers, misguided Gamekeepers, Egg Collectors, outlaw Falconers and wannabe Hawk Keepers, skint lads who've heard or read in the media that every chick is worth ten grand, over zealous Birdwatchers and similarly afflicted Photographers, etc. etc. Most of the people in all these groups (except Egg Collectors) are sound, sensible and law-abiding but, as is always the case, there are a few bad apples in every barrel.
The fact is that most birdwatchers go out at the weekends when the weather is nice. That's not meant to be critical in any way but those with nefarious intent do exactly the opposite. They visit nest sites at night, in the early hours, in bad weather, in fact any time when they anticipate no one will be around to see them. So very few general birders ever witness these activities first hand. Out of sight is out of mind as they say. So if birders don't see these risks then most won't be inclined to consider them too seriously, so they won't see any problem with sharing detailed nest site information with anyone, including by publishing it on the web on Forums like this.
The fact is that these risks are real and present. I've witnessed first hand the loss of a significant number of active raptor nests through human interference. On most occasions, these situations have been discovered afterwards but careful investigations have revealed rope burns on rocks and trees, freshly broken branches, traces of muddy boots on limbs, the tell tale signs of climbing irons, etc. etc. For sure these weren't caused by Foxes or Buzzards or other 'natural causes'. And I've also personally intercepted individuals intentionally and unintentionally breaking the law, including those involved in stealing eggs and young for falconry purposes. All the evidence that I've collected has been reported to the appropriate authorities and I been subsequently called as a witness in Court to testify on a number of occasions.
In summary, I wish to strongly urge all those who are fortunate to visit or discover the nest of Goshawk, Peregrine or any other raptor to think very carefully before you betray the secret of the birds that you've so much enjoyed watching by telling anyone about it.
Great raptor watching to all, including those who expend care, time and effort orchestrating hunting flights for their trained hawks.
As it happens, I fully support legal falconry and have many friends from that sphere of life. Some are so committed that they spend more time with their hawks than they do with their wives.
It is these individuals, not the RSPB, who have not only stated but also demonstrated to me in the hunting field why these two species (ie. Goshawks and Peregrines) are so highly valued as trained hawks. I feel extremely fortunate to have been invited out hawking with some truly skilled falconers and austringers, including one or two 100% genuine 'old school gentlemen' types who've never bought or sold a hawk in their lives.
The thrust of this thread is about Goshawks and where to go to observe them performing their fabulous aerial displays. I agree wholeheartedly with Rob and Robin and would urge extreme caution to anyone considering posting detailed locations, except in the case of the few well known and well protected sites.
Regrettably, Goshawks (and Peregrines) are at real risk from a range of human related pressures, eg. renegade Pigeon Racers, misguided Gamekeepers, Egg Collectors, outlaw Falconers and wannabe Hawk Keepers, skint lads who've heard or read in the media that every chick is worth ten grand, over zealous Birdwatchers and similarly afflicted Photographers, etc. etc. Most of the people in all these groups (except Egg Collectors) are sound, sensible and law-abiding but, as is always the case, there are a few bad apples in every barrel.
The fact is that most birdwatchers go out at the weekends when the weather is nice. That's not meant to be critical in any way but those with nefarious intent do exactly the opposite. They visit nest sites at night, in the early hours, in bad weather, in fact any time when they anticipate no one will be around to see them. So very few general birders ever witness these activities first hand. Out of sight is out of mind as they say. So if birders don't see these risks then most won't be inclined to consider them too seriously, so they won't see any problem with sharing detailed nest site information with anyone, including by publishing it on the web on Forums like this.
The fact is that these risks are real and present. I've witnessed first hand the loss of a significant number of active raptor nests through human interference. On most occasions, these situations have been discovered afterwards but careful investigations have revealed rope burns on rocks and trees, freshly broken branches, traces of muddy boots on limbs, the tell tale signs of climbing irons, etc. etc. For sure these weren't caused by Foxes or Buzzards or other 'natural causes'. And I've also personally intercepted individuals intentionally and unintentionally breaking the law, including those involved in stealing eggs and young for falconry purposes. All the evidence that I've collected has been reported to the appropriate authorities and I been subsequently called as a witness in Court to testify on a number of occasions.
In summary, I wish to strongly urge all those who are fortunate to visit or discover the nest of Goshawk, Peregrine or any other raptor to think very carefully before you betray the secret of the birds that you've so much enjoyed watching by telling anyone about it.
Great raptor watching to all, including those who expend care, time and effort orchestrating hunting flights for their trained hawks.
