oguenaydin
Well-known member
Need help for this Gull.
Foto: Samsun 12/2023 Türkiye
Foto: Samsun 12/2023 Türkiye
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Gull (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter oguenaydin
- Start date
oguenaydin
Well-known member
Why not a Caspian Gull ? Can you explain?
KenM
Well-known member
Because I felt the underwing pattern on your first image was more pro YLG than Caspian.
Cheers
lou salomon
the birdonist
Hi,
it's good that you posted a dorsal view also, in 1st cycle large gulls it provides much more information than the ventral view. Your bird looks like a Caspian Gull (cachinnans) indeed, on structure (flat belly between two conspicous bumps/bends), long bill (but which is slightly overgrown, a common feature in many large gulls when they are young), on rather plain greater coverts pattern and diamond shaped markings to 2nd generation scapulars. However it would be really hard to exclude a Steppe Gull or a hybrid from the russian taiga zone (hybrids include heuglini x cachinnans or heuglini x barabensis or cachinnans x argentatus etc.). Steppe Gull however should be very scarce if not rare in Samsun (probably never recorded, reliably).
it's good that you posted a dorsal view also, in 1st cycle large gulls it provides much more information than the ventral view. Your bird looks like a Caspian Gull (cachinnans) indeed, on structure (flat belly between two conspicous bumps/bends), long bill (but which is slightly overgrown, a common feature in many large gulls when they are young), on rather plain greater coverts pattern and diamond shaped markings to 2nd generation scapulars. However it would be really hard to exclude a Steppe Gull or a hybrid from the russian taiga zone (hybrids include heuglini x cachinnans or heuglini x barabensis or cachinnans x argentatus etc.). Steppe Gull however should be very scarce if not rare in Samsun (probably never recorded, reliably).
lou salomon
the birdonist
they are not too dark for cachinnans, there exist even darker ones. and the hybrid combination cachinnans x michahellis is the rarest ever among large gull taxa in Europe, Roland, just a few in Poland, maybe also Germany. In places where both breed in large numbers they hardly hybridize. In this bird I don't see anything pointing towards a michahellis.
oguenaydin
Well-known member
This Gull is recorded on same day on same location . Can it be a Caspian Gull?
lou salomon
the birdonist
any upperwing shots? It does not looks like a pure Caspian Gull and it looks subadult. Complete black band to p4 would fit a 3rd cycle cachinnans but I'd like to see if primary coverts are black centered (to confirm 3rd cycle). If not, this should be something like heuglini x cachinnans.
oguenaydin
Well-known member
lou salomon
the birdonist
Well, it's a hybrid or so called 'eastern type' cachinnans. This term was used for birds with more black, less white in wingtip in the past, nowadays these kind of eastern types are considered to be more likely of mixed origin. It could be a barabensis (Steppe Gull, Larus fuscus barabensis) on phenotype, nothing wrong for it but I'd be very cautious in labelling it as such. Length of ventral tongues do fit as does the large amount of black in a subadult - could even be a 4th cycle since marks to primary coverts are just narrow along the shafts - a feature seen in heuglini even in older individuals. So, the answer is complicated: either a ver yweird pure chachinnans from Central Asia with features of barabensis, or a real barabensis or a hybrid cachinnans x heuglini or cachinnans x barabensis. I know this isn't a very satisfying answer but up to today we're not able to categorize such types reliably. Thanks for sharing this interesting individual.
