gulls (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

That is not unusual for Yellow-legged Gulls here. I've posted pics here before of YLGs with white tipped P10s.

The structure and leg length all suggest Yellow-legged Gull as does the iris colour. The head shape is all wrong too and it has the typical square, broad, brutish look of a YLG. A Caspian typically has a smaller, domed round head atop a large body.

The legs are also yellow; doesn't always mean YLG, of course, but that's what this bird is.

Cheers,

Andy.

not the tip is all white, andy (which wouldn't bother me at all, neither do the yellow legs) but the underside of p10 tongue is too long: see it marked in the attached pic. the tongue end is nice rectangular, bill is parallel edged without a hanging gonys and curvature of upper mandible is not as strong as usually in micha. this is a male caspian gull, imo.

 

[magpiemick]

not the tip is all white, andy (which wouldn't bother me at all, neither do the yellow legs) but the underside of p10 tongue is too long: see it marked in the attached pic. the tongue end is nice rectangular, bill is parallel edged without a hanging gonys and curvature of upper mandible is not as strong as usually in micha. this is a male caspian gull, imo.

Thanks Lou, the arrowed pic shows the tongue nicely ...

 

[magpiemick]

Here's a nice bird from the 06.10.13 ...

1st. W Caspian just needed better light ..

More images here ...
http://birdingthedayaway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/caspian-gull-1st-w-dungeness-kent-061013.html

Regards

Mick ...

 

[tittletattler]

not the tip is all white, andy (which wouldn't bother me at all, neither do the yellow legs) but the underside of p10 tongue is too long: see it marked in the attached pic. the tongue end is nice rectangular, bill is parallel edged without a hanging gonys and curvature of upper mandible is not as strong as usually in micha. this is a male caspian gull, imo.

Hi Lou,

Well, I disagree.

This bird is much too small to be a male for starters and is no bigger than the LBBG to its left.

The underside of P10 is unusual for a YLG but there is huge variability. Agreed, that feature is better for Caspian, but everything else says 'YLG'.

The bill is too short and is typically lozenge shaped as would be expected for YLG.

Shouldn't ID a gull like this on one feature IMO. Put another bird in front of the primaries, and it wouldn't get a second look as a YLG'.

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[lou salomon]

the long white tongue is one of the few consistant features, andy. it is the one i use as the most reliable one in separating these two. to me the bill is better for cach as said, well, not necessarily a male. it would be good to see the bird in different positions and with an open wing of course - maybe there are more oddities in it and it's in fact a hybrid but: with that p10 tongue and just a small black band separating it from the mirror, i cannot possibly accept it as a YLG :eat:

 

[tittletattler]

the long white tongue is one of the few consistant features, andy. it is the one i use as the most reliable one in separating these two. to me the bill is better for cach as said, well, not necessarily a male. it would be good to see the bird in different positions and with an open wing of course - maybe there are more oddities in it and it's in fact a hybrid but: with that p10 tongue and just a small black band separating it from the mirror, i cannot possibly accept it as a YLG :eat:

I accept your point mate. For me this bird looks nothing like a Caspian and I'd be happier to concede if it showed one more decent feature (I still disagree regarding the bill - you know I can find links to similar YLGs if I put my mind to it )

I spoke to Mick last night and there's a bit more of a story to this bird and how the ID has come to be questionned.

Dominic Mitchell has also photographed similar birds a mile away at Rainham and this bird could be one of those birds.

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[lou salomon]

i'd be interested in details of this peculiar bird. if that's indeed a long p10 tongue (and it looks like one) it would be a strange hybrid, since it doesn't look at all right for any micha i have seen before. bill shape, well, you can turn it this or that way, it is not ideal for either sp. - so, what did dominic tell about this bird?

 

[magpiemick]

I was asked for images for a magazine all YLG's, various ages but certain positions like 3rd. W showing wing spread etc and comparision images like YLG standing with Herring of same age etc, and in with the many i sent was this image of this bird ...

Its been in my folders as YLG since taking the image because thats what i believed it was, so off it went to the magazine, later that day i was asked if i had anymore of this bird so i checked my Raw files but this was the only one so i asked why, and was told that the birds i.d. was suspect and with so much white showing on the underwing it was a possible Caspian ...

So then i posted it on here and you know the rest ...

Mick ...

 

[lou salomon]

thank you, mick.
i've been looking again at the bird. to me this is almost certainly a caspian gull. i found one more feature which is at odds for YLG: not only the large all white p10 tip (merged mirror with tip) but also the large and square p9 mirror. left p9 is a bit displaced so we can see the whole p10 mirror of right wing. see violet arrow for p9 mirror (right wing). such an extensive p9 mirror (seemingly not rounded at its edges) is typical for adult caspian and highly untypical for YLG, although i have seen pics with such birds from romania (where similarities with caspian gull are more frequent among those eastern michas), but usually a p9 mirror in YLG (although variable) looks like the one in the 2nd attached pic.
another thing is the eye: caspian very often shows a slightly closed (long oval) eye while other taxons around (tatus, micha) at the same time show larger and round eyes. i have seen this in many many pics.
bill shape is abs. perfect for caspian: there's no pronounced gonys (with a downcurve in lower mandible) and upper mandible curve at tip is weak, serving for the pencil tip appearance of it.
>90% YLG at this age (full adult, told by large apical spots = white tips of primaries and large p10 mirror without any subterminal mark) don't show a dark mark on bill while this one has dark marks on both mandibles. but adult caspians are likely to show such a mark - one more piece in the puzzle which suits cachinnans.

cheers

 

[tittletattler]

such an extensive p9 mirror (seemingly not rounded at its edges) is typical for adult caspian and highly untypical for YLG, another thing is the eye: caspian very often shows a slightly closed (long oval) eye while other taxons around (tatus, micha) at the same time show larger and round eyes. i have seen this in many many pics.
bill shape is abs. perfect for caspian: there's no pronounced gonys (with a downcurve in lower mandible) and upper mandible curve at tip is weak, serving for the pencil tip appearance of it.
>90% YLG at this age (full adult, told by large apical spots = white tips of primaries and large p10 mirror without any subterminal mark) don't show a dark mark on bill while this one has dark marks on both mandibles. but adult caspians are likely to show such a mark - one more piece in the puzzle which suits cachinnans.

cheers

Some images of Yellow-legged Gulls showing similar bill shape, oval slightly closed eyes, extensive white P10 tip (which I'm told is rare; it's not) dark marks on upper and lower mandible.

We are still left with the long P10 tongue which is very persuasive but on its own, not enough.

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[lou salomon]

black mark is not rare at all, i have reviewed some pics. sure the eyes can look half closed in YLG and sure you get similar bill shapes in YLG. but a bird with nice yellow legs in winter is not necessarily automatically a YLG. 8-P

 

[tittletattler]

black mark is not rare at all, i have reviewed some pics. sure the eyes can look half closed in YLG and sure you get similar bill shapes in YLG. but a bird with nice yellow legs in winter is not necessarily automatically a YLG. 8-P

That P10 IS weird........

Gulls. Bloody Hell.:t:

Andy.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Fulga (PH), October 20th 2013

 

[lou salomon]

nice, cristian: caspians of all 4 discernible age classes in one pic :t:

 

[Cristian Mihai]

nice, cristian: caspians of all 4 discernible age classes in one pic :t:

Yep.
Unfortunately, for the moment, I have some problems with my lens || - but I hope that soon (a week or two) this will be solved and I will be prepared for the winter season.

 

[magpiemick]

Am I right in saying that this bird has replaced many MC & GC to 2nd Gen ?

Its a 1st W... YLG ... ?

Is it a bit odd looking, pale plumage ?

Regards

Mick ...

 

[lou salomon]

hi mick,

it's a perfect 1cy YLG, one of those very advanced ind. having replaced (almost) all coverts, like this one from athens, in a similar angle: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=235598&d=1262468276. is it from britain? i thought such ind. would be early hatched and stem from core mediterranean population...nice one.

 

[magpiemick]

Lou,

This bird was from last week in Majorca, I spent 8 days after 1st & 2nd cy birds didn't find any 1st's but ad. Into low 20's ... All ages of Ylg's ... Most gulls to be found at Peurto Pollenca & Soller big no's of Ylgs at the dump near Son Reus ...

 

[lou salomon]

...that fits. early hatched, advanced southern breeder. but this is a 1cy.

 

[magpiemick]

Yes Lou,

I left out the important bit I was looking for 1st & 2nd cy Audouin's Gull over the 8 days in total travelled 1400km around the coast but only found 2nd's ... With most being Ad. birds ..

Now that makes more sense ...