Harrier question - France (1 Viewer)

[Tib78]

Hi all,

It’s more of a request for images than a true ID question…
This Pallid-type harrier was photographed a couple of days ago near Pointe de l’Aiguillon along the French Atlantic coast.

Would any of you have an image - or know where to find one - of a 1cy Pallid with the exact same secondary pattern: clear double pale bars of same width and separated by a thinner black band, with the proximal bar not fading away (ie maintaining the same width)?

Thanks

 

[tconzemi]

dickforsman.com » Bird Identification

Scroll down to Hybrid Pallid/Hen
Also the body of your juvenile is streaked as in Hen
So maybe hybrid?

 

[CARERY]

Isn't the pattern of the greater underwing coverts and axillaries at odds with a 1cy Harrier? I wonder if it - despite the very fresh and even plumage - could be a 2cy+ bird?

 

[tconzemi]

Isn't the pattern of the greater underwing coverts and axillaries at odds with a 1cy Harrier? I wonder if it - despite the very fresh and even plumage - could be a 2cy+ bird?

But all single feather looks exactly the same age

 

[CARERY]

Yes, that's what was worrying me suggesting 2cy+. But still, the underwing coverts are a bit strange for 1cy imo... Anyway, I like your hybrid-suggestion, Tom.

 

[tconzemi]

One more thing, the bird looks heavy, broad-handed as a female Pallid but has the yellow eye of a male

 

[Tib78]

If you guys wanna have fun with this bird, here is a selection of the best image available.
I guess it was inevitable that the thread would deviate from it’s original subject/purpose: the pattern of the secondaries. 😅

 

[rosbifs]

Continuing the theme of Harrier questions - I need help interpreting Forsmans book about moult.

He says that Monties suspend their moult during migration, a researchgate paper further shows Monties on main primary moult, in wintering grounds, in November. By comparison the moult in Pallid continues throughout the breeding season.

Does this mean a Harrier showing heavy moult now is unlikely to be Monties and can help as an id pointer? Picture taken 09/09 in Pyrenees...

 

[tconzemi]

... Pallid continues throughout the breeding season. (??????)

Does this mean a Harrier showing heavy moult now is unlikely to be Monties and can help as an id pointer? Picture taken 09/09 in Pyrenees...

That would be to easy, differences already between sec. cla year non-breeder, failed breeder, exceptions etc. Most long distance migrants suspend moult during migration and I guess this must be true for Pallid too (I have to check that this evening).

 

[tconzemi]

Maybe Tib can give his personal opinion?
And no, never saw a secondary pattern like this on a Pallid, the closest I know is the hybrid from Dick (link above)

 

[Tib78]

Continuing the theme of Harrier questions - I need help interpreting Forsmans book about moult.

He says that Monties suspend their moult during migration, a researchgate paper further shows Monties on main primary moult, in wintering grounds, in November. By comparison the moult in Pallid continues throughout the breeding season.

Does this mean a Harrier showing heavy moult now is unlikely to be Monties and can help as an id pointer? Picture taken 09/09 in Pyrenees...

Pallid finish their moult earlier than Montagu’s, which is logical when one consider their slightly different migration strategy/timing. Right now many Pallid are done with their primary moult.
But I have definitely seen Montagu’s that were both actively migrating and moulting their primaries at the same time.
And like Tom said, usually birds that haven’t bred (many 2cy birds, failed breeders, etc) will moult slightly earlier than others.

 

[Tib78]

Maybe Tib can give his personal opinion?
And no, never saw a secondary pattern like this on a Pallid, the closest I know is the hybrid from Dick (link above)

And this pattern is actually quite different (and you can be sure I already checked Dick’s hybrid before posting this thread 😉).

This bird has generated quite a debate in France, and it was variously identified as a Pallid (female or juvenile), Montagu’s or even Hen with an abnormal wing formula. I wrote a very long explanation, in French, as to why it certainly wasn’t a Montagu’s or a Hen. I also explained why it had to be a 1cy. I can send the mail to anyone interested but I won’t translate it to English. Would take me too long!

The choice should be limited, in my opinion, between a very peculiar Pallid or a Pallid x Hen with Pallid wing formula. The biggest issue I have with the former solution is the secondary pattern, hence my request here.

Whatever it is, it is an interesting an unusual bird.

 

[rosbifs]

So I have gone back to original photos and managed to lighten the one above - I thought I had overwritten it - and there is a stack of other photos.

There was a lot of discussion about this bird. It was called Pallid, which I like, but I'm not comfortable with it. I'm not comfortable because I think the dark secondaries leading to lighter inner primaries is perhaps down to the moult. When Tibs asked the question about the secondaries I thought I have one like that! I think the light face in the first is a photo artefact but would make it Monties...

The text in Forsman for the Pallid says that Pallid has complete moult between May and September - and usually finishes before autumn migration. I emailed him to ask for clarification but as yet no response. It seemed to resemble plate 439 in his flight id book...

The flight was fairly direct, the bird appeared stocky but obviously that could be the missing feathers giving a false impression. I was torn between observing and getting some extreme distance records shots and getting the group onto the bird.

There are a couple more photos if this bird is worthy of further discussion...

 

[Tib78]

So I have gone back to original photos and managed to lighten the one above - I thought I had overwritten it - and there is a stack of other photos.

There was a lot of discussion about this bird. It was called Pallid, which I like, but I'm not comfortable with it. I'm not comfortable because I think the dark secondaries leading to lighter inner primaries is perhaps down to the moult. When Tibs asked the question about the secondaries I thought I have one like that! I think the light face in the first is a photo artefact.

The text in Forsman for the Pallid says that Pallid has complete moult between May and September - and usually finishes before autumn migration. I emailed him to ask for clarification but as yet no response.

The flight was fairly direct, the bird appeared stocky but obviously that could be the missing feathers giving a false impression. I was torn between observing and getting some extreme distance records shots and getting the group onto the bird.

There are a couple more photos if this bird is worthy of further discussion...

It is a female Hen, adult by the look of it. With the silhouette I was mainly hesitating between Hen and Marsh harrier.
When and where was it seen exactly ?

 

[rosbifs]

It is a female Hen, adult by the look of it. With the silhouette I was mainly hesitating between Hen and Marsh harrier.
When and where was it seen exactly ?

Argeles-Gazost 09/09/2022 - South-West France

Interestingly, I called Hen but then excluded it because I didn't think, even with the moult, it had enough primaries! I was struggling to work out which ones were missing. Basically, I was Hen or Pallid because I couldn't see Monties with this pattern....

 

[CARERY]

If you guys wanna have fun with this bird, here is a selection of the best image available.
I guess it was inevitable that the thread would deviate from it’s original subject/purpose: the pattern of the secondaries. 😅

I was fully aware that I deviated from the original purpose but to search for a similar secondary pattern one should at first agree on the species ID and age of this harrier....

As you say it's not as straightforward as one would hope. I completely agree that with all feathers of one generation this has to be a 1cy. Still, I find the pattern of the underwing coverts/axillaries unusual for a 1cy, and what about the apparent streaking of the body? Does this really suggest that it could be a hybrid Pallid-x-Hen Harrier? As mentioned the wing formular doesn't seem to support that but maybe this feature shouldn't be overrated?
If it's indeed a 1cy then sexing it as male is easy (pale iris, reduced primary barring), as Tom stated earlier.

In his flight ID book Forsman writes for 1cy male Hen Harrier "lighter and more clearly banded secondaries" could be true for Pallid as well...

I managed to find a few pics, non an exact match but approaching. I'd hesitantly conclude it's just a unusually weak patterned Pallid...

https://netfugl.dk/fotos/101586 htt...1 https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/379661001

 

[Tib78]

I was fully aware that I deviated from the original purpose but to search for a similar secondary pattern one should at first agree on the species ID and age of this harrier....

As you say it's not as straightforward as one would hope. I completely agree that with all feathers of one generation this has to be a 1cy. Still, I find the pattern of the underwing coverts/axillaries unusual for a 1cy, and what about the apparent streaking of the body? Does this really suggest that it could be a hybrid Pallid-x-Hen Harrier? As mentioned the wing formular doesn't seem to support that but maybe this feature shouldn't be overrated?
If it's indeed a 1cy then sexing it as male is easy (pale iris, reduced primary barring), as Tom stated earlier.

In his flight ID book Forsman writes for 1cy male Hen Harrier "lighter and more clearly banded secondaries" could be true for Pallid as well...

I managed to find a few pics, non an exact match but approaching. I'd hesitantly conclude it's just a unusually weak patterned Pallid...

https://netfugl.dk/fotos/101586 htt...1 https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/379661001

I’ll reply to some of the point you raised (they are covered in details in the email exchanges 😊).
But I would just point out that your link doesn’t work…

 

[CARERY]

Ah sorry about the non-working links. I inserted them all at once... should have done it one by one:

Netfugl - Foto
Netfugl - Foto
ML426522251 Pallid Harrier Macaulay Library
ML379661001 Pallid Harrier Macaulay Library

 

[Tib78]

Ah sorry about the non-working links. I inserted them all at once... should have done it one by one:

Netfugl - Foto
Netfugl - Foto
ML426522251 Pallid Harrier Macaulay Library
ML379661001 Pallid Harrier Macaulay Library

They do show some similarities to the French bird but their secondary pattern is still within the expected variation of Pallid. Note how these bars, especially the proximal one, fade away as they reach the inner secondaries.
It’s not very unusual for 1cy Pallid to have a distinct pale bar across the secondaries - and it may be even more distinct/paler than on the French bird- but to have a second bar that maintain its width to that extent is unusual (unfortunately we don’t see whether or not it reaches the infer secondaries/the body because it is concealed by the greater coverts). Add to that the very thin middle black bar and it is an extremely weird secondary pattern for Pallid. On the other hand this pattern is quite normal for juvenile male Hen…

 

[lou salomon]

putting all the weird things together: slightly streaked underparts, pale (not orange) underparts, head pattern lacking the contrasty boa and with the dark auricular mark not significantly curving towards bill (and not being bold there), axillaries (I wouldn't ignore that, it's much more easy to find such in a juv Hen Harrier than in a same aged Pallid), and of course the main issue - two evenly pale secondary bars (which neither me has seen in any of the pics I have looked through in the past, talking about juv Pallids), I find the Pallid x Hen theory much more likely than that of a very odd juv male pure Pallid.