Help I.D. Bird of Prey I.D. in Southern California USA (1 Viewer)

[Katy Penland]

By pure coincidence, I was emailed these photos of Red-tailed and Ferrug hawks this afternoon, and got permission from the sender to post here. I particularly liked the shot where both species are soaring together, showing the differences in the wing shape.

 

[W.coast Raptor]

Just some things I noticed.

No matter what this bird looks juv, so posting adult pics of a ferrug isn’t helping.

Gape, mouth seems small for Ferrug. But kinda hard to see. Yet the bill extends down further than Rough or RTH as a ferrug would.

Is that barring, on the top of the tail in the second photo? (Juv ferrug barring is bigger, juv RTH smaller)

The coloring of the under wing looks more ferrug then RT. yet does the body look rough-legged? Is that a dark trailing bar on the tail?

Are those "lights" on the upper wing near the inner primaries? (hence ferrug)

In the second picture are those whispy feathers under the tail leg feathers?

Did any body ever contemplate rough legged? I have seen a lot of variation in rough legs?

Also the ferrug debate: looking at wheeler photographic guide, there is a lot of variation. Not just dark and light morphs, but intermediate morphs as well. Throw that in with juv vs. adult and there is huge variation in this species, just as in any buteo, hence, Roughlegged, Swainson’s and the all mighty RTH

I would say, ferrug, but the gape is just too small, so I am tempted to say Rough-legged yet the tail is all wrong for rough, yet the option for red-tailed remains. I really am torn over this stuff. I will send it around to people and see what they think. These things are so hard. Somebody anybody.

Really looks like juv ferrug. To me. but wait those dark RT style patagials. ah man. I just dont know. :C

 

[W.coast Raptor]

By pure coincidence, I was emailed these photos of Red-tailed and Ferrug hawks this afternoon, and got permission from the sender to post here. I particularly liked the shot where both species are soaring together, showing the differences in the wing shape.

With regards to the pics of the juv Ferrug. in this post ^ just a mental note this was a light juv, on this same day we saw a intermediate and a dark, there is a lot of color variation in these morphs. I highly suggest looking at the wheeler north American photograph guide. It really goes into detail about the different ages and morphs of the ferrug.

Pictures were in west Sonoma/Marin County.

 

[W.coast Raptor]

Hello,
We saw a large bird of prey today in San Joaquin Marsh in Irvine in Southern California. It seemed considerably larger than a Cooper's or Sharp shinned, or red tailed hawk, of which I am more familiar. It seemed closer to a turkey vulture in size.

Your help is appreciated!

if it was bigger than RTH, ferrug is the answer.

 

[Cornell75]

if it was bigger than RTH, ferrug is the answer.

Not sure how valuable size is as an identifier, especially without side-by-side observations. Measurements from the Cornell id pages (taken from BNA), and the Peterson guide:

Red-tailed Hawk 45 - 52 inches wingspan, 18 - 26 length (Peterson, 19 -25)

Ferruginous Hawk 52 - 56 inches wingspan, 22 -27 length (Peterson 23 -25)

Turkey Vulture 67 - 70 inches wingspan, 25 - 32 length

While the Ferrug is larger, it is not much so, and neither the Ferrug nor the Red-tail approaches the Turkey Vulture in wingspan, by about a foot, which despite what I said above may be noticeable without a side-by-side.

 

[B Lagopus]

You know, sometimes the obvious is just smacking you in the face, it just takes a while to be noticed. I talked about the wings above, part of the reason is I've watched hundreds of Red-taileds migrating by this fall, as well as past falls, watching them come in from silhouettes to good views. You can spot a RT long before you see a patagial bar or a belly band. Those bulging secondaries, broad wing tips, held nearly flat, or maybe in a slight dihedral and lifted at the ends, are quite distinctive.

I just now noticed the other big wing structure feature to this bird, besides the wings being too long and narrow, and lacking the secondary bulge. Look at that dihedral. My subconscious must have picked up on it right away, even if I didn't consciously do so. For that is not a Red-tailed way of flying. But it is a Ferruginous Hawk way of holding their wings.

Incidentally, I think the appearance of a patagial bar is throwing people off. Except we can't see a patagial bar from behind. What we can see is the leading part of the underwing coverts, which can form a dark bar with Ferrug. The "comma" is also a Ferrug characteristic.

I may end up in the minority here. But it isn't just plumage details. I've spent way too hours watching too many RTs to buy that long and slender winged bird with that strong dihedral as being one...

 

[Chris Benesh]

Hi All,

Now that I am back home and looking at this bird again (and thanks for the high rez shots), I am completely comfortable with it being a juvenile Red-tailed Hawk. First off, I think that the angle of the bird is making assessments of shape rather tenuous, but it is elements of the plumage that speak to it being a Red-tailed for me. Further, I suspect it falls into the juvenile "rufous morph" phenotype as well. The head looks dark and not particularly big, no sign of massive gape and large bill (but angle difficult). The chin looks dark like the rest of the head, most definitely not a standard Ferruginous Hawk feature. While I grant BL that the barring on the primaries is reduced for a typotypical Red-tailed, the barring that is present on the inner ones and those on the secondaries is that of Red-tailed Hawk. I have yet to see an image of a Ferruginous Hawk with the same density of barring 4 narrow plus broader subterminal band for RT versus 2-3 narrow, more widely spaced bars plus broader subterminal band for F. The patagial mark can be found on both, but looks slightly better to me for RT. However, rest of the underparts look better for RT to me. The bird is extensively mottled on the belly, and the patches are thick and blotchy. I'm not seeing feathered leggings distinctly in either shot. More to the point, the palest part of the underparts is the central breast area, exactly where one would expect to see it on a Red-tailed Hawk. On a similarly plumaged Ferruginous, I would expect the barring on the underparts to be comprised of more narrow, dense horizontal barring. I agree with those who feel this bird is a juvenile, and such densely patterned underparts would be rather odd for a juvenile Ferruginous, which are generally really whitish below as juvs. Finally, the bird seems to have the tail pattern of a juvenile Red-tailed, with numerous thin dark bands. Ferruginous juveniles typically have fewer more broadly spaced bars.

Several aspects of plumage also point against its being a Rough-legged Hawk too. Finally, the area where the image was taken is one in which Red-tailed Hawks are very common, and the other two species under consideration are exceedingly uncommon. But really, I don't see much to argue against its being a Red-tail.

Chris

 

[W.coast Raptor]

yikes.

 

[B Lagopus]

We will likely have to agree to disagree, and that is just fine, particularly in a raptor thread with angle and exposure issues! However, in the spirit of discussion of interesting ID features, I did want to add one more thing I just noticed.

While the view of the primaries is ambiguous, we do have a nice view of the greater primary coverts. Our eye runs up the line of greater upperwing coverts, and then they suddenly turn darker when we reach the primary coverts. Now, the interesting thing about Red-tail juveniles, is that the pale wing panel is comprised of both the primaries and the primary coverts. Indeed, while Brian Wheeler is quite cautious about what characteristics all morphs of juvenile Red-tails have in common, one item that he does have in bold print is:

"In flight, the primaries and respective greater coverts are paler than the secondaries and their respective coverts, and create a large pale panel on the outer half of the wing."

Most interesting how this feature we see clearly does appear to be the exact opposite of a universal characteristic for all juvenile Red-taileds, eh? Particularly in the larger context of that long, narrow, wing lacking a secondary bulge, that is lifted in that nice strong dihedral...

 

[W.coast Raptor]

We will likely have to agree to disagree, and that is just fine, particularly in a raptor thread with angle and exposure issues! However, in the spirit of discussion of interesting ID features, I did want to add one more thing I just noticed.

While the view of the primaries is ambiguous, we do have a nice view of the greater primary coverts. Our eye runs up the line of greater upperwing coverts, and then they suddenly turn darker when we reach the primary coverts. Now, the interesting thing about Red-tail juveniles, is that the pale wing panel is comprised of both the primaries and the primary coverts. Indeed, while Brian Wheeler is quite cautious about what characteristics all morphs of juvenile Red-tails have in common, one item that he does have in bold print is:

"In flight, the primaries and respective greater coverts are paler than the secondaries and their respective coverts, and create a large pale panel on the outer half of the wing."

Most interesting how this feature we see clearly does appear to be the exact opposite of a universal characteristic for all juvenile Red-taileds, eh? Particularly in the larger context of that long, narrow, wing lacking a secondary bulge, that is lifted in that nice strong dihedral...

I appreciate your stuff thanks. good points.

 

[W.coast Raptor]

Hi All,

Finally, the area where the image was taken is one in which Red-tailed Hawks are very common, and the other two species under consideration are exceedingly uncommon.
Chris

dont get me wrong that leading edge patagial mark is very RTH looking. but just as a note.

I have seen 11 ferruginous hawks in the last week where they aren’t even supposed to be. As a guide and schooled professional you know a lot of stuff goes out the window in terms of where and when and why they are suppose to be there.

So if I have 11 FH's in one week where they are "rare"

The books say they are in "normal winter range" where the poster saw the bird. That says something about "exceedingly uncommon"

but again I am just pointing out some things I've noticed, basically range maps in books aren’t all that creditable. I have found with ferrug's at least in Nor Cal.

 

[Andy F Smith]

The underwing pattern of this bird looks very similar to one that I identified as a red tail (see attached). Please feel free to correct me on the ID, all the shots are of the same bird taken about 3 weeks ago in south west Colorado. I believe that this bird looks like a light juvenile red tail hawk of the western population and to my mind compares well with the photos of the bird seen in California.

Since arriving in the US I have found the hawks very difficult to distinguish, but I thought this one was fairly close to definite and I would say that Common Raven's bird is also a red tail.

Look forward to comments

Andy

 

[Chris Benesh]

dont get me wrong that leading edge patagial mark is very RTH looking. but just as a note.

I have seen 11 ferruginous hawks in the last week where they aren’t even supposed to be. As a guide and schooled professional you know a lot of stuff goes out the window in terms of where and when and why they are suppose to be there.

So if I have 11 FH's in one week where they are "rare"

The books say they are in "normal winter range" where the poster saw the bird. That says something about "exceedingly uncommon"

but again I am just pointing out some things I've noticed, basically range maps in books aren’t all that creditable. I have found with ferrug's at least in Nor Cal.

Hey WCR,

Perhaps you missed the gist of my post. Sure, I agree that birds routinely show up where they are not supposed to be. I was not citing some checklist or field guide when I said that the bird is exceedingly uncommon there. I lived and birded in southern California for several years and visit Orange County each winter for birding (which often includes a visit to the San Joaquin Marsh). It is not good habitat for Ferruginous Hawk and is crawling with Red-tails, many of which match the phenotype of this bird. Ferruginous Hawk is more common slightly inland in Orange County in the flat grassy plains which it prefers to overwinter in rather than along the coastal plain. If Ferruginous Hawks are doing something weird this year that is rather noteworthy and worthy of forwarding on to the North American Birds editors. What bothers me more than whether a Ferruginous Hawk could occur at the San Joaquin Marsh is why we are ruling out Red-tailed Hawk in the first place.

Chris

P.S. don't any of you have real names?

 

[tizziec]

P.S. don't any of you have real names?

Ya... tizzie

 

[Common Raven]

if it was bigger than RTH, ferrug is the answer.

Thank you everyone for all of your help and commentary. Regarding the size, I've seen red tails only from afar, but I've seen California Condors and Turkey Vultures much closer (5 feet in the case of the condor). My initial impression is that this was quite larger than a red tail, but I am no longer sure especially considering all the debate and the fact that I've never seen red tails close. This bird flew maybe 20 feet above us.

Perhaps seeing the bird so close threw me off? I do know that the sheer size of it impressed me in the same way that only the CA condors and turkey vultures have in the past.

Regardless, thanks again for your analyses.

 

[Common Raven]

Ya... tizzie

Elias H. Zuniga

 

[Chris Benesh]

Hey Elias,

Nice to put a name to a username (and to Tizzie as well)!

I find that size can be rather deceptive and over the years, I have certainly seen many examples of our minds inability to accurately determine absolute size. We rely more than we think on relative cues. One of the funnier examples was when two rather esteemed ornithologists mistook a Golden Eagle for a rosy-finch until it took to the air and its lumbering flight became evident. It works both ways too. Birders are often amazed at how small sparrows and shorebirds are when seen up close, usually without the aid of binoculars. The mind has its limitations.

And on the subject of condors, I can remember driving in the Sierra Nevada mountains with my Dad as a kid and coming around a corner and having a Turkey Vulture come up off the road and barely clear our car. Its huge apparent size made me swear up and down that it just had to be a condor. My patient Dad assured me it was just a Turkey Vulture which a field guide later verified. But hey, it did inspire us to go see some real condors on Mt. Pinos. Oh, that's a Condor! How lucky for you to get so up close to one of the world's greatest birds.

Chris

 

[halftwo]

Hi Chris,
LOL I actually hit a Turkey vulture in Cuba & did that seem big as it hit our windscreen - it had taken off from the road too!!
On the relative size subject I remember seeing a Golden eagle fly straight over my head at about 20 feet up & it seemed very small, yet when seeing them at half a mile they look huge!
Halftwo (Richard)

 

[JANJ]

Hi BL.

The p1 mentioning, or p10 (outermost) was a quick impression from the image seen, and I realise that wing formula (primary position) is rather similar to RTH, except for the narrower outer hand.


http://www.utahbirds.org/birdsofutah/BirdsL-R/RedTailedHawk5.htm

In bird 4 above, a similar impression is created in the right wing as in the the subject bird:

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=63084

which in fact is rather similar to this one, thinking plumage now:

http://www.pbase.com/garrettlau/image/50852413

Look at the P-coverts:

http://www.pbase.com/imagestruck/image/55854820

I think Chris made a good point to why the raptor is a RTH
and wouldnt those obviously barred uppertail coverts look better for RTH?

JanJ

 

[gerdwichers8]

Nice opportunity for building some experience here. Both species are of much interest.

http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/FEHA.html
http://www.pbase.com/sly113/raptors

Regarding the patterning of this bird, in particular to the flanks and the lesser and median coverts but as well the type of barring to the wing and the tail gives me the impression of a juvenile Red-tailed Hawk.
Great to be watching Hawks in the America's!

p.s Nice pics.