**HELP NEEDED** Unidentified Shrike (1 Viewer)

[ruggiel]

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_cApylz4gDCg/SLL4XEAHUmI/AAAAAAAAB8w/sEgK5Q_t-GI/shrike.jpg
Here is a similar tail pattern on a Grey-backed Fiscal Shrike
Do you have a link to the video on your tube?

Video on Youtube (also in HQ) by W.Viganò
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxy70jG9t38

 

[Howard King]

In the video at point 50secs the birds turns and shows his back - this is not the back of a Red-backed Shrike and although the bird certainly shows a grey head with brown as can a Red-backed (see photo attached ) that's where the similarity ends -- To me its more Lesser Grey than anything else but what is mixed in with it I for one wouldn't like to say

 

[JANJ]

Hello all

I took this to Surfbirds forum, check the suggestion there now.

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13

JanJ

 

[Kestrel21]

Back in 2007 i ringed a hybrid shrike in Malta it was a hybrid woodchat for sure due to the brownish hue on the head and prominent scapular white. The rest indicated a crossing with either a lesser grey or red backed. In my opinion it was a cross with a lesser grey since that was what the bird looked like overall. However many experienced ornithologists didnt agree abt this bird.... This italian bird looks a bit different from the one i saw, possibly a woodchat x red-backed, in fact its back is quite brownish..... Pic of the malta bird attached.

 

[l_raty]

One more for comparison:
http://users.skynet.be/ch-web/index_en.htm?photos/lansen005.htm
This bird was paired to (and raised youngs at least two years in a row with) a perfectly normal female Red-backed. (Woodchat is a very rare breeder in Belgium; Lesser Grey is a major rarity.)

For what it's worth, McCarthy (2006) cites numerous references describing natural hybridization between Woodchat and Red-backed (and several describing cases having involved Red-backed and Lesser Grey, but this pairing could indeed probably not explain the appearance of the Italian bird). For hybridization between Lesser Grey and Woodchat, on the contrary, he only cites a single specimen "believed" to have been a hybrid. (IOW, no hybrid pairings have been described, and the existence of such hybrids is probably best regarded as hypothetical.)

I keep finding the bright chestnut tones in the fringes of the wing coverts and tertials of the Maltese bird difficult to explain without the other parent having been a collurio. I'm not too sure of what I see on the Italian pictures in this regard (there are some brown/chestnut tones in the wing, but I'm not completely certain of the pattern of the feathers).
The tail pattern of both birds also shows similarities to that of a Red-backed. (For the Italian bird, compare the picture showing its undertail [Luciano's post #15 above] to, e.g., this picture.)

Laurent -

 

[fricka]

I don't see how the long tail is likely to arise from any of the possible hybrids already mentioned or why such a hybrid is thought more likely to occur than a vagrant of one of the sub-Saharan fiscals - there are plenty to choose from!

 

[Howard King]

I don't see how the long tail is likely to arise from any of the possible hybrids already mentioned or why such a hybrid is thought more likely to occur than a vagrant of one of the sub-Saharan fiscals - there are plenty to choose from!

Having just looked through the gallery and other picture resources on line I am inclined to agree as this scenario seems far more likely

 

[Tib78]

Hi,

I can't reconcile what I am seeing with any of the African Lanius.

I am in the hybrid side here. I think there little doubt that one of the parent is a Woodchat shrike:
-there are some rufous feathers on the nape (just like the bird in post #24 and the one that Laurent has linked to in post #25)
-the white pannel to the upper wing strongly support the Woodchat parentage

For what it worth, I think the tail might be too long for a Woodchat x Red-backed hybrid. The tail shape reminds me of Lesser Grey...so Woodchat x Lesser grey??

I have attached 2 pictures of a probable Woodchat x Red-backed (or alternatively Woodchat x Lesser grey) from Eastern France. Note how similar it is to the Maltese bird in post #24...

 

[Jacana]

how many sub-saharan resident passerines are on the Italian list? or any European countries' list? not many i'd bet. Therefore a hybrid is the most likely thoery, especially as it has a precedant.

 

[Howard King]

How many people would think North American birds could make the UK - AT LEAST ACROSS the Sahara for a shrike plenty of food and stopping places enroute should it decide to wander

 

[tophillbirder]

How many people would think North American birds could make the UK - AT LEAST ACROSS the Sahara for a shrike plenty of food and stopping places enroute should it decide to wander

Yanks under take long distance migration and are therefore liable to being displaced in the right conditions. Sub Saharan birds are sedentary or undergo short distance movement and rarely encounter the conditions that cause vagrancy, so are very unlikely vagrants.

 

[Howard King]

How many European species winter in Sub Saharan Africa - it only takes one native to tag along with birds naturally moving north - nothing is impossible - we should at least keep an open mind

 

[Jacana]

I do agree we should keep an open mind, but the chances of vagrancy from Africa are miniscule. Resdient species make up tiny proportion of all vagrants. Take for example the African and Asian Desert Warblers. Asian are migratory, African are resident, and even though African are closer, all the vagrant Desert Warblers in the UK have been Asian the same goes for Mcqueen's Vs. Houbara Bustards. Best example I can think of though is Crested Larks, there's a cross channel population around Calais 21 miles from England and just look at the number of records we've had, just 20!

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but all the evidence so far points towards a hybrid.

 

[James Thomas]

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but all the evidence so far points towards a hybrid.

Have you considered the possibility of it being a hybridised Fiscal? My initial thoughts were that some features were easier to ascribe to a Fiscal but couldn't see a species that matched.

Just thinking out loud, but how do hybrids occur? Obviously the more closely the species are related the more likely it is to happen but if a particular bird is on it's own and can't find a mate of it's own species then surely it will feel compelled to breed with anything that will have it? So a fiscal finds itself north of the Sahara, it will have to hybridise if it is to reproduce. If anyone has any knowledge on this to support or otherwise I'd be interested to hear.

 

[Jacana]

Have you considered the possibility of it being a hybridised Fiscal? My initial thoughts were that some features were easier to ascribe to a Fiscal but couldn't see a species that matched.

The possibility is there, but then you've got to get past the initial problem of the fiscal crossing the Sahara in the first place, or a Eurasian species breeding in the wintering grounds.

I too would be interested if anyone has got any evidence showing this to be a possible scenario.

 

[Hotspur]

Have you considered the possibility of it being a hybridised Fiscal? My initial thoughts were that some features were easier to ascribe to a Fiscal but couldn't see a species that matched.

Just thinking out loud, but how do hybrids occur? Obviously the more closely the species are related the more likely it is to happen but if a particular bird is on it's own and can't find a mate of it's own species then surely it will feel compelled to breed with anything that will have it? So a fiscal finds itself north of the Sahara, it will have to hybridise if it is to reproduce. If anyone has any knowledge on this to support or otherwise I'd be interested to hear.

I think the only(?) record of Woodchat Shrike breeding in this country was as a hybrid with RB Shrike several years ago so hybrid lanius do occur when both species are in low concentration.

 

[James Thomas]

If anyone has the time Page 216 onwards

 

[fricka]

How many European species winter in Sub Saharan Africa - it only takes one native to tag along with birds naturally moving north - nothing is impossible - we should at least keep an open mind

And what are often regarded as 'resident' species often undertake considerable seasonal movements within the region, the details of which, as far as many species of Lanius are concerned, seem to be practically unknown.

 

[John Cantelo]

An interesting bird! An article in 'British Birds' (96.9; 454-459) entitled "Presumed hybrid between Red-backed Shrike and Lesser Grey Shrike in Bulgaria" describes a bird not too dissimlar to the one here (given the instability of a hybrid mix).

Whilst none of us can know, at this point, what this bird is, it seems to me that a Woodchat/Lesser Grey Shrike hybrid is by far the most likely option. Unlike other proposed parent species the breeding ranges of these two actually substantially overlap,