Interesting Optics Trade discussion on where Leica binoculars are made. (1 Viewer)

[Dennis Mau]

My Retrovid 7x35, purchased exactly 1 year ago, is labeled "Made in Portugal"

I believe all the Trinovid 7x35's are made in Portugal. It is just some of the Noctivid, Ultravid and Duovid that are labeled Made in Germany.

 

[Dennis Mau]

Not that I'm aware of, but both the brown outer box the silver and green Leica box comes in, and the silver and green Leica box itself, will have a white sticker with a date on it (as well as the serial number).

My suspicion, is that you have a new example from older stock. From observations I've made over the last year or so, Noctivid and Ultravid instruments have been labelled Made In Portugal from at least the second half of last year, although others will probably be able to say more accurately when the labelling switch was made.

I had one retailer test the focus wheel of his entire Noctivid stock, in search of one with a perfect focus mechanism, having rejected the first example he sent me, for that reason. None of his 10x42's were any better, but he tested his 8x42 stock and did perceive his two older Made In Germany new stock to have a smoother action than his newer Made In Portugal stock. In the end, I found a Made In Portugal example which was absolute perfection, so please don't misunderstand, I am most definitely not buying in to any conspiracy theory that there is any difference in the quality or specification of instruments made in Germany, or that they are in any way better than those made in Portugal.

We do know, however (from old threads on this subject), that having the Made In Germany badge is important to some.

"Not that I'm aware of, but both the brown outer box the silver and green Leica box comes in, and the silver and green Leica box itself, will have a white sticker with a date on it (as well as the serial number)."

My box has 08/11/2020 stamped on it. So it was made on November 8, 2020.

 

[Mike F]

"Not that I'm aware of, but both the brown outer box the silver and green Leica box comes in, and the silver and green Leica box itself, will have a white sticker with a date on it (as well as the serial number)."

My box has 08/11/2020 stamped on it. So it was made on August 11, 2020.

8th November.

 

[gweller]

"Not that I'm aware of, but both the brown outer box the silver and green Leica box comes in, and the silver and green Leica box itself, will have a white sticker with a date on it (as well as the serial number)."

My box has 08/11/2020 stamped on it. So it was made on August 11, 2020.

Dennis, shame on you! Surely you realise that the rest of the world writes dates in the proper format, dd/mm/yyyy ? Oh and I'm glad to see you will be taking my advice about further Leica purchases!

 

[Bentley03]

"Not that I'm aware of, but both the brown outer box the silver and green Leica box comes in, and the silver and green Leica box itself, will have a white sticker with a date on it (as well as the serial number)."

My box has 08/11/2020 stamped on it. So it was made on November 8, 2020.

Ok, that makes sense, because they were manufactured around the same time as that article was posted, as far as I can tell.

So, you have a pair of binoculars labelled Made In Germany, with an article of similar age supporting the labelling on your instrument. And, you are delighted with your binoculars.

However, at some point in the last 17 months, Leica decided they were no longer able to justify the Made In Germany badge previously adorning their Noctivid range, and changed it to read Made In Portugal. If Optics Trade were to publish an updated version of that article, I am sure they would reflect this change too.

18 month old article, 17 month old binoculars, and both can be cross referenced in terms of the badging on your binoculars. End of... surely?!

Any further discussion really would be flogging a very old and very dead horse!

Dennis, I, personally, will resist ever giving you a slating on here, partly because I'm a new and very junior member compared to you (and undoubtedly less knowledgeable), but mainly because I have observed that of the many threads you start, a healthy proportion of them help drive this forum in a very positive way, often provoking the most fascinating, informative and educationally rewarding discussions/debates, with the 'heavyweights' wading in with interesting facts and explanations. This thread, however, was not well judged, and was not one of your finest...😉

 

[Dennis Mau]

This is the email I received from Leica concerning where my Leica Noctivid's 8x42 were made.

Von: DENNIS MAU <[email protected]>
Gesendet: Samstag, 2. April 2022 16:41
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Are Leica Noctivid's 8x42 Made in Germany?

I have a new pair of Leica Noctivid 8x42 binoculars, and they clearly say Made in Germany on them, but I have been told they are Made in Portugal. Where exactly are they made? The S/N 2269263. Attached is a picture showing of the Made in Germany label. Thanks!

Dennis Mau

Dear Leica customer,
"Many thanks for your request. Our binoculars have been manufactured in the Leica factory in Portugal for some time, unfortunately I cannot answer you from which serial number. If it says "Made in Germany" on the binoculars, then it is also made in the Leica factory in Wetzlar. Otherwise, it would say "Made in Portugal". Do not hesitate to contact us again if you have further questions."

Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards
Peter Brieger
Leica Camera AG
Customer Care
Product Support
Am Leitz-Park 5 / D-35578 Wetzlar
www.leica-camera.com / [email protected]
Telephone 06441-2080111

 

[Bentley03]

Super, Leica have confirmed what Birdforum members have already told you. Hopefully we can lay this thread to rest now. 🙂

 

[Mike F]

If it says "Made in Germany" on the binoculars, then it is also made in the Leica factory in Wetzlar. Otherwise, it would say "Made in Portugal".

Note the wording carefully! Also made surely means manufactured in Portugal with enough final assembly in Wetzlar to justify the Made in Germany badge?

But, to be honest, I'm not sure what the issue is. If the Binoculars with different 'Made in' badges are indistinguishable from each other, what's the issue?

 

[Dennis Mau]

Note the wording carefully! Also made surely means manufactured in Portugal with enough final assembly in Wetzlar to justify the Made in Germany badge?

But, to be honest, I'm not sure what the issue is. If the Binoculars with different 'Made in' badges are indistinguishable from each other, what's the issue?

That is the "issue." The reason I first started researching where Leica binoculars or specifically Noctivids were made was because my first pair of Noctivid 8x42's were Made in Portugal and quite frankly they were not the quality of the 2nd pair I received which say Made in Germany on them. My first pair of Noctivids which I returned had a rough focuser, the eye cups were rough and tight when you tried to extend them and the overall armour wasn't as perfect as the Made in Germany pair I now have. Bently03 also commented above " I had one retailer test the focus wheel of his entire Noctivid stock, in search of one with a perfect focus mechanism, having rejected the first example he sent me, for that reason. None of his 10x42's were any better, but he tested his 8x42 stock and did perceive his two older Made In Germany new stock to have a smoother action than his newer Made In Portugal stock." The Made in Germany Noctivid's I have are obviously older stock because Leica started labeling the newer Noctivids with Made in Portugal to reflect where final assembly took place. I am NOT saying the Made in Germany Noctivids are all better than the Made in Portugal Noctivids, but they were in my experience. Could it be the assembly is better in Germany or the parts were being made to a higher standard in Portugal 2 years ago and quality has diminished since then?

 

[Mike F]

To be honest, Dennis, I think the truth, based on all of the evidence and my research (including emailing my Leica rep a few years ago) is that all of the manufacturer and most of the assembly of the UV’s and NV’s has be done in Portugal for years with possibly only a bare minimum of final assembly and boxing done in Germany until recently. The differences you note are most likely just sample variation. FWIW I had three ‘Made in Germany’ NV’s in my possession for a short while and none of the focusers felt the same - one was perfectly smooth, one felt somewhat grainy and the other one was in between.

This though, as others have said, is a subject which has been (or should have been) laid to rest by now. Most people were aware of the truth of the situation with regard to the actual place of manufacture of the UV and NV, and any small deception that Leica may have been guilty of is in the past (like their bad service record) as they now openly state the all of their binoculars are made in Portugal.

 

[MiddleRiver]

I don't get the sample variation... or are some people more 'sensitive' and discriminating? I currently own six Leica binos ranging from 1990's to 2021 and previously owned a 70's pair (deemed unrepairable by Leica). THe older 7x35BN's did fail (the prisms), but I figure 50+ years was a good run (and Leica gave me a new pair of HD trinovids at what had to be their cost). The others are all near perfect to my senses. All slightly different, but no grit, no slop, no peeling coverings, nada, zip, nothing. One pair (BL's) are marked 'Made in Germany', the others all Portugal. Did I get lucky?

Correction: Ironically, the made in Germany UV's, do show a couple of barely discernable hairline stress cracks in plastic diopter cover. They would still be in 30yr warranty period so I could send them back (?) but honestly, I can live with it. Yeah, I may just not be as OCD as I thought i was!

Princess-and-the-Pea?

 

[jafritten]

Note the wording carefully! Also made surely means manufactured in Portugal with enough final assembly in Wetzlar to justify the Made in Germany badge?

FWIW, when native speakers of German use English, the word "also" is often used incorrectly. This is because the German word "auch" ("also") is also used - and very frequently so - as an affirmative intensifier. I think that's the case here. Some Germans translate the intensifier (... then it is also...) whereas in English one would just set the "is" in italics.

It seems to me that Herr Brieger evades the question by giving an answer that seems too obvious.

 

[Mike F]

FWIW, when native speakers of German use English, the word "also" is often used incorrectly. This is because the German word "auch" ("also") is also used - and very frequently so - as an affirmative intensifier. I think that's the case here. Some Germans translate the intensifier (... then it is also...) whereas in English one would just set the "is" in italics.

It seems to me that Herr Brieger evades the question by giving an answer that seems too obvious.

Good point. In that case I think it’s the sort of standard evasive answer that Leica have been giving for years. I think (99.9% sure) the only thing that has changed is that Leica have decided to come clean about it......

 

[jafritten]

Good point. In that case I think it’s the sort of standard evasive answer that Leica have been giving for years. I think (99.9% sure) the only thing that has changed is that Leica have decided to come clean about it......

That's what I am thinking. And I think they're right in coming clean about it, eventually. Portugal and Germany are little more than geographical terms in this context. It is a Leica factory after all.

 

[gweller]

I don't think it matters where they are made - Portugal or Germany. It's a Leica factory, and Leica are going to make sure the same standards of care are applied in manufacturing wherever the plant is located.

 

[yarrellii]

On the subject of how binoculars are made and not where, I want to recommend to everyone the excellent selection of books on optics by SPIE. I have 4 of their field guides:

Binoculars and Scopes

@limonabe Really interesting. I've read that the "Field Guide to Binoculars and Scopes" was published in 2011. Thinking about getting it (and considering the price), do you think it's still relevant? Or do you know about any other more recent publication that might have superseded it? (Maybe Holger Merlitz's book? Or is that too technical and in a different league?). Thank you for any clarification

 

[Dennis Mau]

I don't think it matters where they are made - Portugal or Germany. It's a Leica factory, and Leica are going to make sure the same standards of care are applied in manufacturing wherever the plant is located.

Yes, but are Portuguese as quality conscious as Germans. I know Chinese are not as quality conscious as Japanese from experience with their products.

 

[Dennis Mau]

FWIW, when native speakers of German use English, the word "also" is often used incorrectly. This is because the German word "auch" ("also") is also used - and very frequently so - as an affirmative intensifier. I think that's the case here. Some Germans translate the intensifier (... then it is also...) whereas in English one would just set the "is" in italics.

It seems to me that Herr Brieger evades the question by giving an answer that seems too obvious.

It also seems evasive to me, and I don't speak German.

 

[Dennis Mau]

I don't get the sample variation... or are some people more 'sensitive' and discriminating? I currently own six Leica binos ranging from 1990's to 2021 and previously owned a 70's pair (deemed unrepairable by Leica). THe older 7x35BN's did fail (the prisms), but I figure 50+ years was a good run (and Leica gave me a new pair of HD trinovids at what had to be their cost). The others are all near perfect to my senses. All slightly different, but no grit, no slop, no peeling coverings, nada, zip, nothing. One pair (BL's) are marked 'Made in Germany', the others all Portugal. Did I get lucky?

Correction: Ironically, the made in Germany UV's, do show a couple of barely discernable hairline stress cracks in plastic diopter cover. They would still be in 30yr warranty period so I could send them back (?) but honestly, I can live with it. Yeah, I may just not be as OCD as I thought i was!

Princess-and-the-Pea?

I don't think I am more sensitive or discriminating, and there is obvious sample variation. Honestly, I would go as far a saying the Noctivid I received that was Made in Germany is almost like a different binocular than the one I received that was Made in Portugal. The Portugal made Noctivid had a rough sticky focuser and I almost decided not buy another one, but I just happened to get a perfect sample on my second try. It may have nothing to do with it being assembled or made in Germany, but the second binocular sure was at a different quality level. Vortex binoculars used to be MIJ and now that they are MIC the quality has dropped even though Vortex says they control every aspect of production and the binoculars are thoroughly inspected. Germany is ranked number one in quality by consumers for many reasons. Here is a good article on why Germany has such a good reputation for producing high quality products.

Made In Where? The Countries With The Best Reputations For Producing Quality

A new survey by Statista shows how people in different nations view products and goods made in other countries. Who has the highest reputation for quality and design? Who has the most disappointing reputation?

www.forbes.com

 

[MiddleRiver]

I don't think I am more sensitive or discriminating, and there is obvious sample variation. Honestly, I would go as far a saying the Noctivid I received that was Made in Germany is almost like a different binocular than the one I received that was Made in Portugal. The Portugal made Noctivid had a rough sticky focuser and I almost decided not buy another one, but I just happened to get a perfect sample on my second try. It may have nothing to do with it being assembled or made in Germany, but the second binocular sure was at a different quality level. Vortex binoculars used to be MIJ and now that they are MIC the quality has dropped even though Vortex says they control every aspect of production and the binoculars are thoroughly inspected. Germany is ranked number one in quality by consumers for many reasons. Here is a good article on why Germany has such a good reputation for producing high quality products.

Made In Where? The Countries With The Best Reputations For Producing Quality

A new survey by Statista shows how people in different nations view products and goods made in other countries. Who has the highest reputation for quality and design? Who has the most disappointing reputation?

www.forbes.com

That article means absolutely nothing about the actual mfg ability of different nations. Go back and read it - it's about people's perceptions. THere are just as many placebo studies that show that people are more satisfied with name brands than generics, etc. etc.

To be clear: I'm not arguing against German quality. But I think the whole Germany vs Portugal thing is ridiculous. YMMV ;-)