Latest IOC Diary Updates (3 Viewers)

[mb1848]

Dear Kirk. Makes sense. But the NACC and the Working Group share members Schulenberger, Rasmussen, and Chesser and Remsen was a former member of WGAC. I think NACC has a little Manifest Destiny hangover going on.

 

[Mysticete]

It actually is reflected in the checklist. Check Rallidae for good examples in both common names [e.g. "Eurasian (Common) Moorhen"] and scientific [e.g. "Porphyrio martinica (martinicus)"]. I just noticed this, but the header of the checklist says "Clements-updates." ABA Checklist 8.11 - American Birding Association

I think it is telling that the ABA list now has the Clements names and taxonomy (e.g. "Gray-headed Swamphen) as the standard checklist unit and the AOS treatment [e.g. (Purple) Swamphen] as the parenthetical. I believe it signals a change away from the statement that "the ABA follows NACC, while eBird reflects Clements." The checklist reads as if ABA follows Clements, not NACC. I think ABA is reflecting the reality that North American birders give more checklist credence to eBird rather than the AOS - and there are multiple reason for that.

I agree with Morgan that Clements (and I might add IOC) may be holding off on announcements or decisions that may either influence or be affected by the NACC process. But I've had a real impression in the past couple of years that it seems like Clements and IOC are playing ball with WGAC, while NACC seems to cherish its independence quite more. It seems to me that WGAC is indeed working toward unification and indeed making big progress, but it also seems to me that there is a real danger of AOS taxonomy being left behind the rest of the world... which would especially include North America if ABA and eBird continue to embrace Clements over AOS.

I've noticed that in the past and commented on that. At the moment, in practice, it doesn't make much of a difference. The Moorhen situation is just a case of an alternative name, while there are currently no accepted records/established populations of other species of Swamphen to add to the ABA list. Although there are some records of Swamphens that appear to be the African form, but who knows if they are natural vagrants.

Obviously this would change quite a bit if you see Yellow-rumped Warbler or Fox Sparrow split, since those would actually increase the ABA list and add several easy to see species to the list.

 

[Mysticete]

Dear Kirk. Makes sense. But the NACC and the Working Group share members Schulenberger, Rasmussen, and Chesser and Remsen was a former member of WGAC. I think NACC has a little Manifest Destiny hangover going on.

Its always worth keeping in mind that taxonomic committees are not monolithic in there opinions and outlook on taxonomy. Just because some NACC members are on the WGAC committee doesn't mean they agree with all the WGAC decisions. And even if they did, they might not have the votes to force a change.

 

[Kirk Roth]

I've noticed that in the past and commented on that. At the moment, in practice, it doesn't make much of a difference. The Moorhen situation is just a case of an alternative name, while there are currently no accepted records/established populations of other species of Swamphen to add to the ABA list. Although there are some records of Swamphens that appear to be the African form, but who knows if they are natural vagrants.

Obviously this would change quite a bit if you see Yellow-rumped Warbler or Fox Sparrow split, since those would actually increase the ABA list and add several easy to see species to the list.

True, but remember that there was a time when Clements was mostly lockstep with the NACC too. The ABA policy switch happened just after the schism between Clements and NACC on Mexican Duck taxonomy, and just before WGAC began influencing proposals to NACC in earnest - interesting timing. The ABA Checklist Committee had a reason for switching this policy - even if it wasn't immediate "major" differences.

Or let me put it another way - would it look better for ABA to adopt Clements a few years before a hypothetical difference between eBird and AOS affects people's bird lists... or as a sudden reaction to that change?

I'd say it doesn't make much of a difference (currently) to people's checklists, but it makes a very big difference on the question of AOS authority - and maybe that doesn't become well appreciated until the former difference comes to be.

 

[Mysticete]

A few years back I had heard frustration about the NACC taxonomic decisions from folks associated with the internal workings of the ABA. So a divorce between those organizations wouldn't be a particular surprise, and would result in a less drastic change than...say...adding Hawaii to the ABA region.

When the WGAC checklist is formally published and the reconciliation process done, I hope WGAC will continue to review taxonomy for North America separately from NACC, and not simply fall back to rubber-stamping NACC decisions.

 

[njlarsen]

When the WGAC checklist is formally published and the reconciliation process done, I hope WGAC will continue to review taxonomy for North America separately from NACC, and not simply fall back to rubber-stamping NACC decisions.

They will have to continue reviewing taxonomy in the rest of the world. There would not be any reason to treat the Americas differently, I think.
Niels

 

[jts1882]

When the WGAC checklist is formally published that will be the end of the first stage. It's not an end result. Presumably the process will continue with the other checklists reevaluating their species against the WGAC one, resulting in further convergence.

It's not clear to me if a single checklist is the final goal or if they just want to get them closer. Differences in opinion can lead to better final decisions.

 

[Mysticete]

When the WGAC checklist is formally published that will be the end of the first stage. It's not an end result. Presumably the process will continue with the other checklists reevaluating their species against the WGAC one, resulting in further convergence.

It's not clear to me if a single checklist is the final goal or if they just want to get them closer. Differences in opinion can lead to better final decisions.

Multiple checklists can invite further discussion, but if each checklist continues to be maintained separately and left to there own devices on what to add or not add, with a decade or two we would probably be back to the state of things before WGAC's checklist kicked off.

I mean it wouldn't shock me if this happened, or if a new checklist emerged, of course.

 

[Mike Earp]

I asked Normand David when the supplements will be published, he replied "July". I am also amazed at their delay

I just noticed this at the foot of page 180 of the latest issue of Indian Birds:

I assume this is him. I don't remember his death being noted before on BirdForum.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

I just noticed this at the foot of page 180 of the latest issue of Indian Birds:
View attachment 1513689
I assume this is him. I don't remember his death being noted before on BirdForum.

I'm aware from Alain Fossé and, indirectly, Denis Lepage, of the death of Normand David since many weeks. He was my supervisor of my book since summer 2021.

 

[MJB]

I just noticed this at the foot of page 180 of the latest issue of Indian Birds:
View attachment 1513689
I assume this is him. I don't remember his death being noted before on BirdForum.

I met Clive Mann on a number of occasions and quite often corresponded with him; he was excellent company.

I have had only a very limited correspondence with Normand David, but he was both courteous and patient. I also enjoyed his contributions to debate.

Two very fine people that I shall miss.
MJB

 

[James Jobling]

Shocked and saddened to learn of the death of Normand David, a stalwart in ornithology and nomenclature.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Shocked and saddened

Me too. We were in correspondence a lot for almost a year and a half

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Décès de Normand David, un pilier de l'ornithologie québécoise
(published 18 April 2023, here, all in French)

R.I.P.

 

[Mysticete]

Jun 10 Accept split of Crimson-breasted and Scarlet-breasted Woodpeckers.


Jun 10 Post split of Cryptic Becard from Black-and-white Becard.

 

[gusasp]

Jun 10 Accept split of Splendid Woodpecker from Crimson-bellied Woodpecker.

 

[Jacana]

Jun 10 Accept split of Streaked Dacnis from Tit-like Dacnis.

Jun 10 Accept split of New Hanover Mannikin from Mottled (Hunstein's) Mannikin.

Jun 10 Accept split of Vilcabamba Spinetail from Marcapata Spinetail.

Jun 10 Accept lump of Western Ground Parrot with (Eastern) Ground Parrot.

Jun 10 Accept split of Buff-rumped and White-rumped Woodpeckers.

 

[Paul Clapham]

Jun 10 Accept split of Streaked Dacnis from Tit-like Dacnis.

As of this change, IOC 13.2 contains 11,001 extant species (by my count), for those interested.

 

[Mysticete]

I kind of expect it to drop back below 11,000 honestly, as there are several mooted lumps for this year not yet incorporated.

 

[Paul Clapham]

Maybe we should have a pool to bet on the final number?