birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
So Teal and GW Teal hybridise thus must be lumped....but by that low-brow rationalisation then ALL wildfowl must be lumped 🤷🤦♂️😂
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Latest IOC Diary Updates (18 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sally Conyne
- Start date
On the positive side, "Seagull" would become a valid species.
l_raty
laurent raty
Based on captures by the Wayback Machine of Internet Archive -
On 15 Apr 2024 :
Puffinus mauretanicus (Balearic Shearwater) - Avibase
web.archive.org
On 9 Nov 2024 :
Corvus cornix (Bonte Kraai) - Avibase
web.archive.org
(But note this was still version 0.02, which is a bit odd given the date.)
On 9 Nov 2024 :
Saxicola stejnegeri (Stejnegers Roodborsttapuit) - Avibase
web.archive.org
Last edited:
James Lowther
Well-known member
Bad news….. another 2 (or 3) to be scrubbed off my list, plus 3 swamphens 😬Based on captures by the Wayback Machine of Internet Archive -
On 15 Apr 2024 :
...WGAC apparently treated mauretanicus as a ssp of yelkouan.Puffinus mauretanicus (Balearic Shearwater) - Avibase
On 9 Nov 2024 :
...WGAC apparently still treated cornix as a full sp.Corvus cornix (Bonte Kraai) - Avibase
(But note this was still version 0.02, which is a bit odd given the date.)
On 9 Nov 2024 :
...WGAC apparently treated stejnegeri as a ssp of maurus.Saxicola stejnegeri (Stejnegers Roodborsttapuit) - Avibase
but thanks for checking!
James
Jacana
Will Jones
Dec 15 Lump Brown-mandibled Aracari with Ivory-billed Aracari.
Brown-mandibled Aracari Pteroglossus mariae is lumped with Ivory-billed Aracari P. azara based on extensive hybridization at contact zones and similar plumage, despite minor differences in bill coloration (Haffer 1974; Dickinson & Remsen 2013; del Hoyo & Collar 2014; HBW/BLI; SACC).
Brown-mandibled Aracari Pteroglossus mariae is lumped with Ivory-billed Aracari P. azara based on extensive hybridization at contact zones and similar plumage, despite minor differences in bill coloration (Haffer 1974; Dickinson & Remsen 2013; del Hoyo & Collar 2014; HBW/BLI; SACC).
l_raty
laurent raty
mariae was found to be embedded in P. azara, as defined until now on the IOC list, by Patel et al 2011.
DDonsker
David Donsker
Thanks. Patel et al. (2011) went into the decision-making too. Comment revised.
Jim LeNomenclatoriste
Je suis un mignon petit Traquet rubicole
Would you take in account Ostrow & al. (2023) who published a fairly comprehensive study on Ramphastidae?
Dec 17 Re-lump Perplexing Scrubwren with Large Scrubwren.
"Perplexing Scrubwren Sericornis virgatus (including jobiensisis and pontifex) is considered by most authorities to be a stable hybrid, mid-elevation population between Sericornis nouhuysi and Sericornis beccarii and is relumped with Large Scrubwren Sericornis nouhuysi (Beehler & Pratt 2016; del Hoyo & Collar 2016. See also Gregory 2007)."
"Perplexing Scrubwren Sericornis virgatus (including jobiensisis and pontifex) is considered by most authorities to be a stable hybrid, mid-elevation population between Sericornis nouhuysi and Sericornis beccarii and is relumped with Large Scrubwren Sericornis nouhuysi (Beehler & Pratt 2016; del Hoyo & Collar 2016. See also Gregory 2007)."
Steve Lister
Senior Birder, ex County Recorder, Garden Moths.
Excuse my ignorance of such things but isn't Italian Sparrow also supposed to be a stable hybrid? Will that disappear too?
Snapdragyn
Well-known member
If it's a stable hybrid, how do you relump with one of the parents without also lumping the parents?
l_raty
laurent raty
By following "most authorities"...?
Jacana
Will Jones
Probably not. The Italian Sparrow situation is very well studied, whereas the Scrubwren situation seems to be more on "vibes" and returning to a conservative position.
Viktor Björkert
Active member
Yet, I fail to see how considering Perplexing Scrubwren to be a hybrid swarm is compatible with lumping it into Large Scrubwren. Should it not in this case instead be considered an invalid species?
Jacana
Will Jones
Because that would mean taking a new position, rather than returning to a consensus position. This will keep coming up with these lumps. A lot of these changes aren't based on new info at all and are likely moving to an "incorrect" consensus until new information comes to light.
Paul Clapham
Well-known member
Not so long ago, Northwestern Crow was observed to be a hybrid swarm with respect to American Crow, and so the two were lumped, or at least the contact area between the two was described as such. Northwestern Crow still exists as the subspecies caurinus. Of course there may be significant differences between the two hybrid swarms which I'm not familiar with.
l_raty
laurent raty
Back when is it was not afforded species rank, we used to have Italian Sparrow as Passer × italiae -- which was not really included in any of the parent species.
Last edited:
Viktor Björkert
Active member
I understand that they are reverting to the consensus treatment. My point is that their justification for this change is that Perplexing Scrubwren is a hybrid swarm, which is not compatible with lumping said hybrid with one of the parental species without also lumping the other parent, in this case Tropical Scrubwren. If it truly is “considered by most authorities to be a stable hybrid”, why not treat it as such?
This is a different scenario. In this case, extensive gene flow was found between Northwestern and American Crow, whereby they were lumped into one species with both original species considered valid subspecies-level taxa. In the scrubwren case, this treatment would be akin to lumping Large and Tropical Scrubwren and considering Perplexing Scrubwren a hybrid between the two.
Exactly my point!
Jim LeNomenclatoriste
Je suis un mignon petit Traquet rubicole
In
Fraseria lendu to F. olivascens (~410000 years)
Ficedula albicollis to F. hypoleuca (~990000 years)
Monticola angolensis to M. rupestris (~720000 years)
Myrmecocichla tholloni to M. formicivora (~470000 years)
Myrmecocichla collaris to arnotti (~840000 years)
Oenanthe cypriaca and melanoleuca to O. pleschanka (~280000 years)
Oenanthe chrysopygia to O. xanthoprymna (~370000 years)
Oenanthe warriae and halophila to O. lugens (dating unknown)
Did we know the divergence time between M. striata and tyrrhenica ?
A lot of Muscicapid species need to be lump based on short divergence time (from Zhao & al., 2022) :
Fraseria lendu to F. olivascens (~410000 years)
Ficedula albicollis to F. hypoleuca (~990000 years)
Monticola angolensis to M. rupestris (~720000 years)
Myrmecocichla tholloni to M. formicivora (~470000 years)
Myrmecocichla collaris to arnotti (~840000 years)
Oenanthe cypriaca and melanoleuca to O. pleschanka (~280000 years)
Oenanthe chrysopygia to O. xanthoprymna (~370000 years)
Oenanthe warriae and halophila to O. lugens (dating unknown)
Did we know the divergence time between M. striata and tyrrhenica ?
Similar threads
