Leica coatings now and then (1 Viewer)

[jafritten]

Inspired Mike's (Mike F) post in another thread (6 January 2022 - New Leica announcement) and much debate about Leica coatings and presumably tacit improvements made by Leica I thought it might be of some interest to show and compare coatings with reference to the respective models and the year of production.

From left to right:
UV HD+ 7x42 (2020)
UV HD 10x32 (2014)
UV BR 8x20 (2013 I think, maybe early 2014)

What I see is that the coatings of the 2020 UV+ and the 2014 UV non+ are quite similar, the purples and greens being slightly more saturated in the coatings of the 2014 model. The 8x20 from 2013 does not show any purple reflections at all.

Looking through the binoculars, the colour balance or cast is quite similar in the images seen through the 8x20s and the 7x42s whereas the 10x32 is much darker and the colours seen through it are more saturated and have a warmer tone compared to the other two binoculars.

Feel free to upload your pics and reports.

 

[Mike F]

Nice photos! What I think they show is that the three you have are far more similar than dissimilar. But, what I think they also show is that the same bin can show quite different colour reflections in the same light from different angles. That, unfortunately, indicates that photos from different members of bins in different lights and taken from different angles are not going to be able to provide results from which anything can be objectively established.

As I said in the thread which you mentioned above, the information from the best sources previously suggested that different colour casts in the objective coatings was the result of different batches and indicated nothing about the optical properties of the binoculars which had apparently quite different colour coatings, as was the case with the two 12x50’s I had which were made only months apart.

 

[jafritten]

[...] But, what I think they also show is that the same bin can show quite different colour reflections in the same light from different angles. That, unfortunately, indicates that photos from different members of bins in different lights and taken from different angles are not going to be able to provide results from which anything can be objectively established. [...]

You're absolutely right, Mike. With no clearly defined methodology my idea is a far cry from objectivity.

After having seen your pictures in the above mentioned thread I was just curious to see what the coatings on my Leicas were like. I played around with the angle to see if one of mine would exhibit the purple-yellowish hue of your 2020 model. Neither did. Much to my surprise, the 8x20s (2013) only show greenish reflections.

 

[Mike F]

It's interesting, for sure! When we finally get enough good daylight I will take a picture or two of my Leica's and post them here, just for the sake of interest. However, the situation I had, being in possession of two identical binoculars within a few months of manufacture of each other with quite difference colour coatings but no perceivable difference in the view, was enough to convince me that nothing can be determined about the quality of coatings from their colour alone.

 

[talkrz]

Recently I received a pair of UVHD+ 7x42 binoculars. I've had an opportunity to test two samples. According to the info on the box the first sample was manufactured in late 2017 and it had blue coatings, similar to ones from the original post. Unfortunately I had to return it.

The store sent me new one manufactured in late 2021. They are described as "Made in Portugal" and the coatings seem to have quite different appearance, no more blue tint. I couldn't make side by side comparison of both binoculars, and it's hard to tell how big the difference in image color is. Here are the 2021 UVHD+ coatings photos:

 

[Mike F]

So I’ve managed to take some pictures of my binoculars in decent daylight. I tried my best to take each picture from the same angle and from the place which maximised the coating reflections.

The pictures from top to bottom are:-

12x50 Ultravid HD+
10x42 Noctivid
8x42 Trinovid (2011-15)
7x42 Ultravid HD+
10x25 Trinovid BCA
Group shot

To my eyes, the most similar looking coatings (to each other) are the Trinovid 10x25 BCA from the mid 90’s and my early(ish) 10x42 Noctivid which both have a distinctly purple hue, and the 8x42 Trinovid (2011-15) and the 12x50 UVHD+ from very late 2019 which both have a distinctly blue/green hue. The odd one out is the 7x42 UVHD+ from around 2017 which has a much more tobacco/green hue.

It goes without saying that the BCA’s and the NV’s must have the most different coatings of the lot, so it seems that nothing can be deduced from colour alone. Interesting subject though!

 

[jafritten]

So I’ve managed to take some pictures of my binoculars in decent daylight. I tried my best to take each picture from the same angle and from the place which maximised the coating reflections.

The pictures from top to bottom are:-

12x50 Ultravid HD+
10x42 Noctivid
8x42 Trinovid (2011-15)
7x42 Ultravid HD+
10x25 Trinovid BCA
Group shot

To my eyes, the most similar looking coatings (to each other) are the Trinovid 10x25 BCA from the mid 90’s and my early(ish) 10x42 Noctivid which both have a distinctly purple hue, and the 8x42 Trinovid (2011-15) and the 12x50 UVHD+ from very late 2019 which both have a distinctly blue/green hue. The odd one out is the 7x42 UVHD+ from around 2017 which has a much more tobacco/green hue.

It goes without saying that the BCA’s and the NV’s must have the most different coatings of the lot, so it seems that nothing can be deduced from colour alone. Interesting subject though!

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Thank you, Mike. Very much appreciated. From what we see here, it appears that the different (colours of the) coatings do not indicate a gradual improvement. Also, there appears to be no simple correlation between the colour of the coatings and the colours we see when we look through our Leicas.

What, then, is the reason for the distinct differences and also the remarkable similarities in the case of your 90s Trinovid and your Noctivid, for example? Could those differences possibly be accounted for by the use of different machinery in the manufacturing process - possibly in different manufacturing sites?

 

[Mike F]

Thank you, Mike. Very much appreciated. From what we see here, it appears that the different (colours of the) coatings do not indicate a gradual improvement. Also, there appears to be no simple correlation between the colour of the coatings and the colours we see when we look through our Leicas.

What, then, is the reason for the distinct differences and also the remarkable similarities in the case of your 90s Trinovid and your Noctivid, for example? Could those differences possibly be accounted for by the use of different machinery in the manufacturing process - possibly in different manufacturing sites?

All interesting questions. I'm afraid that I'm not knowledgeable enough on this subject to be able to offer any good answers. Some input from more experienced members would be great at this point - can you throw any light on this @henry link? @John A Roberts?

As far as my limited knowledge goes what I can say is that, despite what Leica may have wanted people to believe until recently, all significant binocular production (save possibly for some final assembly) has been done at Leica's excellent modern premises (and at the old factory before that) in Portugal for decades, so different manufacturing sites cannot account for these variations (assuming that Leica has and continues to produce the lens for these bins in Portugal. There is some reason to believe that the newer Trinovid HD is sourced from the Far East). I don't see how the use of different machinery in the manufacturing process could account for these variations.

As I said before, I believe that, although the coatings on the NV are obviously different and better than on the BCA (the NV has AquaDura coatings for a start), the variation in the apparent colour of the coatings on different bins is due simply to coating batch variation and not coating type. I'm hoping that someone can confirm this.......

 

[jafritten]

All interesting questions. I'm afraid that I'm not knowledgeable enough on this subject to be able to offer any good answers. Some input from more experienced members would be great at this point - can you throw any light on this @henry link? @John A Roberts?

As far as my limited knowledge goes what I can say is that, despite what Leica may have wanted people to believe until recently, all significant binocular production (save possibly for some final assembly) has been done at Leica's excellent modern premises (and at the old factory before that) in Portugal for decades, so different manufacturing sites cannot account for these variations (assuming that Leica has and continues to produce the lens for these bins in Portugal. There is some reason to believe that the newer Trinovid HD is sourced from the Far East). I don't see how the use of different machinery in the manufacturing process could account for these variations.

As I said before, I believe that, although the coatings on the NV are obviously different and better than on the BCA (the NV has AquaDura coatings for a start), the variation in the apparent colour of the coatings on different bins is due simply to coating batch variation and not coating type. I'm hoping that someone can confirm this.......

I fully agree with you on the Portugal question, Mike. I am, however, a bit sceptical of batch variation being the only reason. Moreover, the variation is not exactly subtle, is it? I would think that Leica are capable of reducing variation to the point where it would be hardly detectable.

What I was thinking of when I conjectured about a different site was this: Maybe some coatings are made where their photographic lenses receive their coatings. Unfortunately, I have no Leica lenses of recent production, so I can't lend any substance to what I am thinking. My most recent Leica lens was made in 1978...
Maybe they (Portugal) receive batches from another manufacturing site whenever Leica have to balance their production capacities between different sites.

Hopefully, someone can shed some light on the matter.

 

[Mike F]

I have a feeling that very subtle differences in coating formulations / batches can result in very noticeable apparent differences in colour. The two 12x50’s which I had that were just a few months apart in manufacture with no discernible difference in view but quite different colour coatings would seem to point to that?

 

[jafritten]

I have a feeling that very subtle differences in coating formulations / batches can result in very noticeable apparent differences in colour. The two 12x50’s which I had that were just a few months apart in manufacture with no discernible difference in view but quite different colour coatings would seem to point to that?

With no sound knowledge, I think we can leave it at that. As long as the view is equally great the colour of the coatings does not really matter. I mean, you don't have to be careful which one you pick, do you?

I've used my 8x20s this morning and noticed that the ocular coatings of my 8x20s are very similar to the objective lens coatings of your 7x42s....