Mystery bunting - Turkey (1 Viewer)

[Motmot]

This thread brings memories of this similar and also interesting one:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=270531

 

[Jane Turner]

There is another epic Cirl v Corn Bunting thread - I'll locate it.


I see neither species to a 1st approximation and can't imagine there being a problem in the field, but there certainly seems to be one in ID'ing them from photos

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=8485

 

[Jane Turner]

You know I'm not certain what this bird is, but I will take a fair bit of convincing that its not the same taxa as the Portuguese bird in the thread above.

Could it be a Cirl after all?

 

[Kaan Ozgencil]

I never thought this thread could get this big. Amazing! The bird; however, probably won't get a 100% without a doubt type of ID, which is perfectly ok. I will be following the thread. Thanks everyone.

 

[Kaan Ozgencil]

And one quick question. I'll be buying Sparrows and Buntings by Byers soon. What really is the difference between 1995 version and 2013? And is it ok for me to ask this question here or is there another forum where people ask questions about books?

 

[Andy Adcock]

And one quick question. I'll be buying Sparrows and Buntings by Byers soon. What really is the difference between 1995 version and 2013? And is it ok for me to ask this question here or is there another forum where people ask questions about books?

It's still described as a 1st edition which usually means it's just a reprint with no changes.


Andy

 

[Kaan Ozgencil]

It's still described as a 1st edition which usually means it's just a reprint with no changes.


Andy

Thank you very much, Sir.

 

[alazzo]

I had an opportunity to learn the ideas of bird experts by this photo from here, bto, ebird, birdtrack, birdguides even Instagram and more. Some experts said corn bunting, some experts said little bunting, some experts said pine bunting, some experts said yellowhammer, some experts said cirl bunting, reed bunting. Who is the expert? I want to learn that much more than the which bunting is this. So sorry everyone from now on im laughing and say one of remaining ones. Rustic bunting! New deal?

 

[Muratfaik]

Many years ago, again with a bunting, I was convinced that I saw a male Yellowhammer half the size of the other yellowhammers I had seen that day. I am more experienced today (then about 800 sp life list, today about 3x that) - and I am today not sure that it was not the strange light conditions that day that made me mistake what might just have been a normal size bird. This only to illustrate that a reasonably experienced observer can still be outdone by the conditions, there does not have to be a camera included to induce errors.

Niels

Hi Mr Larsen,

Similar situation here: one of my photographer friend found a place where many tit and forest birds can be photographed at a very close distance. We shared this place with other photographers-birders. I tried to explain why some of the coal tits are the half size of the other coal tits. But more than 20 photographer has his/her own idea without knowing anything Bergman rule (and one or two more biology rules). And now I am saying "yeah.. good.. go on.." another situation is, here in Ankara, in several birding reports, the Reed Bunting is shown as a resident species. But as far as I know, there are four different subspecies around here. And since the migration period is protracted the migrating times are partially coinsiding. The birds are not same birds, but the species is recorded as same birds. Because in winter time northern birds i. e. Russian birds arrive to Ankara, and ours gone towards South. There are many minute detail differences between them, but nobody cares. In your case, may be two different, or one population meets with a vagrant which exeeds normal migrating line i. e. Appalachians to Bay area-Florida to Chilie. Oh, one note; almost nobody can notice size differences of tits, from a digitally cropped photo, only observers.

Murat F. Özçelik

https://vimeo.com/channels/murat

 

[Muratfaik]

Hi all,
Murat, I accept the points you made in your post addressed to me, but I was busy all day yesterday and am only getting around to responding now!
I actually doubt that I've ever seen clanceyi Corn Bunting. The range of that taxon is given as western Ireland (where the species is now extinct) and western Scotland (where I have never seen Corn Buntings). In theory, the one vagrant bird that I have seen here, on Cape Clear Island in 2003, may have been of this form, but it may just as equally been a nominate bird. I concede that most of my personal Yellowhammer experience is based on caliginosa here in Ireland, but I have seen quite a few citrinella also, and I took into account before commenting how greyish some female-type erythrogenys can be (perhaps mainly 1st-winter females?). I recall Dick Forsman posting images of grey and white wintering Yellowhammers from Finland that perhaps could have belonged to that taxon. I can't recall if I saw any Yellowhammers in central Asia, I can only remember a few singing male Pine Buntings (phenotypically textbook birds) outside Astana.

I also concede that, as the images are far from perfect...and this is not meant as a criticism of the photographer...then there is an element of uncertainty introduced into the equation where it comes to me or anyone else making a comment. We may be influenced by 'false impressions', as it were. My main aim, originally, was to give my reasons as to why the bird can't have been a Pine Bunting, and in that sense alone, one could say that it doesn't matter which of two presumably common species in Turkey was involved. But it's always worthwhile trying to figure a puzzle out, even if one's best efforts are ultimately in vain then much useful discussion can take place. We have all been given a timely reminder of erythrogenys Yellowhammer, a bird taxon that presumably could stray even to western Europe...if (phenotypically good) Pine Buntings can get here, then perhaps they could also, and they could be a source of

When I made my comments about the bird in the original image lacking obvious yellow fringes to the remiges, I was taking erythrogenys into account as well, based on, among other things, the images of that form posted on this thread. Even those seem to have (faint) yellow tones to these fringes, which the subject bird seems not to, though, again, the usual proviso applies that the apparent colour tones of those shots may not be truly representative of the actual appearance of the bird (and the actual appearance itself would depend on ambient light, of course).

I ask the original photographer, in the spirit of trying to seek the truth here, not to be deemed 'right' or 'wrong' or make a competition out of this, if there are any shots showing the bird's tertials head on (maybe the whole bird with its back turned to the camera, say)? After all, Corn Bunting and Yellowhammer consistently differ from each other on tertial pattern, and this one feature might enable us all to identify the bird with confidence. In addition, are there any pics showing the front of the breast? The streaks on a Corn Bunting's breast often coalesce to form a distinct spot, and, if present, this would also exclude Yellowhammer

I can't make a good judgement call on the colour of the lower mandible, the images are just too poor, which is a shame as that is also a very useful feature, as you know.
Regards,
Harry

Hi Harry,

I agree with most of your comments, but still want to discuss some more

"Corn Bunting and Yellowhammer" consistently differ from each other on tertial pattern"

Please note that the status of the corn bunting is resident to partial migrant as you know. They winter generally within the breeding range. But some birds consistently go to Northern Africa and Northern part of Arabian Peninsula. Western birds (the migrant ones) mostly go to Southeast or South-southeast. And southern birds go to the West. And most importantly, at least some Eastern birds moves towards to south or east. Mid European corn buntings move further distances than the Northern European birds (Think about the wing structure of finch-brambling). I've already shared the wing length differences as a table above. Do you believe the tertial structure of the corn buntings are same in Turkey? And reports indicates that corn buntings are making their pass with longest distances in October.

On the other hand Yellowhammer has a resident to migrant status over the Europe. In winter only the Northeast parts of the breeding range seems completely empty. European migrants leave for very small distances (up to 500km on Northern Europe, up to 250 km on Central Europe). Russian and Siberian yellowhammers come to Middle East and Northwestern India. At this season these birds can be found in Cyprus, Near East and Iraq. Confusion starts here. Different populations meets and odd looking birds can be attributed to several species. And this happens from September to November (-December).

When we look at their food; corn bunting feeds on ground at the field crops, meadows. Only in severe winters they change this behaviour. On the other hand, yellowhammer feeds on meadow plant seeds and fruits. I have some winter footage showing them feeding on buds (as bullfinches). Look at the photo, do you see buds For example they never feed on crucifera. İnterestingly in Turkey, corn buntings are mostly seen on wires while yellowhammers are seen on fruit and similar trees.

When we look at the specific location that photo was taken; there are several flocks of yellowhammers belonging to several populations around METU campus. Most well known one can be seen on the trees between Hacettepe University Beytepe Campus and the nearby Rural Affairs pond. If someone/something disturbs these birds, they fly away towards METU. They stop on the trees at the Rural Affairs back yards for a while, and look back if the danger is gone or not. If not they spend the rest of the time in METU campus. After I established the Beykuş (Hacettepe University bird watching club) since the observers were too crowded (and since I new they would disturb the birds), I was waiting these birds at the Faculty of Architecture's canteen, untill they arrive to METU campus on our observation days and in this population there were always some odd looking birds with pale (not yellow) remiges . The second closest population can be onserved in Tuluntaş village. If someone disturbs these birds they fly away towards Ballıkpınar village and stop half way for a while where there are 20-30 cherry trees planted in private gardens. Another population can be observed in Velihimmetli village. They move amongst the little rivulets, they fly away towards Yağlıpınar village where they can be in mixed flocks with a few Cirl buntings.

When we look at the corn buntings, there are allways some birds at bizimçatı road. These birds together with the Yavrucak birds rest in military area at Hacımuratlı village. On the Eskişehir road side generally they perch on wires on the field crops and rest in some certain trees. METU campus has always some corn buntings. Normally they are not found in pine trees but, a few years ago METU-Teknokent was established and it caused some habitat fragmentation. I think this might have caused a change in birds perch preference (For example there was a crowded grey partidge flock, and now it is divided into three flocks, one of which went to the other side of the Eskişehir road.). At this area the Yellowhammer and Corn bunting populations are getting tohether. That is why The place that photo was taken, can not be discussed from an habitat type of point of view.

Wing structure, food-habitat type, movement timing, behaviour all will be helpful to ID this bird. Any more info/comment is welcome.

Murat F. Özçelik

https://vimeo.com/channels/murat

 

[Maffong]

I had an opportunity to learn the ideas of bird experts by this photo from here, bto, ebird, birdtrack, birdguides even Instagram and more. Some experts said corn bunting, some experts said little bunting, some experts said pine bunting, some experts said yellowhammer, some experts said cirl bunting, reed bunting. Who is the expert? I want to learn that much more than the which bunting is this. So sorry everyone from now on im laughing and say one of remaining ones. Rustic bunting! New deal?

You can at least write off the experts for Little and Reed Bunting (probably even for Pine Bunting) as many obvious characteristics and general appearance don't fit these species at all. Eventhough I'm still in for Corn Bunting I might still be persuaded that it's a Yellowhammer or Cirl Bunting.
However, I think we won't be able to come to a unanimous conclusion and the bird might best be left unidentified, unless there are more pictures with new characteristics on them.
At least we all learnt a fair deal about bunting ID )

Maffong

 

[CARERY]

Couldn't follow the discussion for a few days... Wow it has become a great threat! So much could be said, but unfortunately not much time now.

One remark concerning the second photo from the bird that was posted (bird looking away from photographer). I believe despite the poor quality one can clearly see a quite narrow lighter brown crown-stripe (framed by darker brown lateral crown-stripes). Assuming it is not an artefact, shouldn't this exclude Corn Bunting as can (not) be seen at the in-hand pictures posted earlier in this threat? Can a Yellowhammer have such a prominent crown-stripe?

 

[Muratfaik]

Couldn't follow the discussion for a few days... Wow it has become a great threat! So much could be said, but unfortunately not much time now.

One remark concerning the second photo from the bird that was posted (bird looking away from photographer). I believe despite the poor quality one can clearly see a quite narrow lighter brown crown-stripe (framed by darker brown lateral crown-stripes). Assuming it is not an artefact, shouldn't this exclude Corn Bunting as can (not) be seen at the in-hand pictures posted earlier in this threat? Can a Yellowhammer have such a prominent crown-stripe?

Like this?: http://www.birds.kz/v2photo.php?l=en&s=020300886&n=1

or this?: http://birds.kz/v2photo.php?l=en&s=007700074&n=1&t=561&p=4



Murat F. Özçelik

https://vimeo.com/channels/murat

 

[Maffong]

Or this: http://www.alsirhan.com/images/Corn_Bunting_sc420.jpg

and this: http://f3.webmart.de/f.cfm?id=1231426&r=threadview&t=4068210&m=16363635#16363635



Maffong

 

[CARERY]

Maffong, you linked pictures where i can recognize a darker (not very narrow) crown-stripe framed by lighter lateral crown-stripes. Not as in the mystery-bunting the other way round.

Murat, the pictures you linked look very good but show birds that are very yellow, probably adults? Do also first years can show that? Could you possibly present video-grabs from the less yellow buntings you posted earlier that show the back of the head?

 

[Muratfaik]

Roland,

You caught a very good point. Attached are some head comparison shots between two species (Milaria calandra and Emberiza citrinella). The "lighter brown" crown stripe that you mention is actually yellowish in color. Here is what I did for comparison: I boosted the colors of the original photo. Then I interpolated some. Cropped the head part of the bird. And pointed the yellow spots on the crown. Then I look for a yellowhammer footage of mine (unfortunatily I only had time to check very shallowly only 10 percent of my yellowhamer archieve). I found a nape angle. In that scene the nape and crown feathers of the bird is undulating due to wind. I pointed similar black and yellow spot in two shots as well as for the Kazakh birds which are the bottom two. I look for similar undulating and pointed those.

Then I found the head details of corn bunting and Yellowhammer. As clearly seen on the images, there is no pale part on the crown feathers of corn bunting but in the Yellowhammer. I assume even this is enough for ID of this bird.

The yellowish tone in Kazakh birds can be caused by severeal reasons: Feeding, genetic or digital aberrations.

Yellowhammers prefers carbohydrate rich cereals instead of oily ones. There are different wheat types in Turkey than Kazakhistan (Cumhuriyet 76 and Kunduru is two exremes in Turkey). The red pepper boost the red pigment in canaries and this is a canary breeders trick since centuries.

I don't want to be in a deep discussion here about which gene/locus causes tail feather fringes extend. But there is such a genetic effect.

And I played with colors and contrast on my Ipad roughly so that the hidden colors are exposed.

I already didnt took serious the pine bunting claim. But is there any pale fheather part in Corn buntings crown and nape feathers? I don't think so.

So what are your comments?

Murat F. Özçelik

https://vimeo.com/channels/murat

 

[Jane Turner]

One of the features that really out me off Pine Bunting, and therefore also Yellowhammer for this bird, is its apparent structure - it looks really quite short-tailed to me.

 

[Muratfaik]

Good point by an experienced eye.. That is why I am insistently asking info about "erythrogenys" subpecies. The tail body ratio and body proportions of our yellowhammers seems to be a bit different than their European cousins. Here are some rough comparison pictures with arrows. First one is a frame grab of mine, which belongs to a typical yellowhammer. Second is the METU picture. And 3rd is a typical European yellowhammer. I indicated the tail length with two different length marking arrows, one from tail tip to the end of under tail coverts and the other one from tail tip to the tip of primaries.

I've also attached an Eastern yellowhammer, which was shared before. The whole length of the bird is roughly more than four times longer in Turkish and Eastern birds, while the European bird have this ratio approximately 3.2 times. In this case, I think the tail length criteria is pushed out of equation.

Murat F. Özçelik

https://vimeo.com/channels/murat

 

[Muratfaik]

Sorry, forgot the attach the last picture..

 

[Bryon Wright]

Bunting

Hi Murat,
so this is a hybrid?