foresttwitcher
Virtually unknown member
Seroously people, those do not matter, people will still call birds what they want and if they seriously need to sort a confusion, they always have the Latin system to check, where is the problem?
:t:
Seroously people, those do not matter, people will still call birds what they want and if they seriously need to sort a confusion, they always have the Latin system to check, where is the problem?
After reading the OP, I was worried that this will devolve into a discussion on vernacular names. Seroously people, those do not matter, people will still call birds what they want and if they seriously need to sort a confusion, they always have the Latin system to check, where is the problem? Can we rather return to the real issue at hand, namely:
Can people please stop ******* up WP listing on an annual basis?
As if it weren't difficult as it is already! Some 60-odd countries are in question and each of them has its own private list with no real overarching authority, so figuring out whether a rarity/cat. C bird I have seen oitside of my countries counts is already a detective work! I can understand changes due to new knowledge or established populations, but changes because someone just got a new opinion are outrageously disrespectful to any foreign birders who simply can't follow your current local whims (which often aren't even properly explained in English anywhere).
There is a level of irony in saying "people will call birds whatever names they want" and then demand that people rigidly conform to a concept of what is tickable.
By the same logic, can't you just a. Tick what you want or b. Pick an all encompassing western pal list that suits you?
Owen
There is no irony. If you wanna have a competition with other people, you need consistent rules, otherwise it's no fun at all. The logical rules are to follow local checklists for birds seen in a country, because that's where the information about which birds are established in which country should be. However this simply doesn't work if the countries in question start flip floping on their opinions. Yes, there can be a global list, but a) who is gonna maintain it and based on what data? and b) for many species it makes sense to view them differently in different places. So again, the most practical solution would be to leave it to the locals.
Meanwhile, how do people call the birds in any language has no practical impact on anyyhing (as long as there is a unique identifier for the case of confusion) besides few guys who strongly need to hear their preffered version for some reason.
After reading the OP, I was worried that this will devolve into a discussion on vernacular names. Seroously people, those do not matter, people will still call birds what they want
So you could set up a list where you had the option of ticking Ziegenmelker, or of ticking Nachtschwalbe . . . or, if you want to boost your totals, tick both? 3Ever thought about going the grass roots route and setting up an internet platform for the competitive birders to agree on consistent counting using community-selected lists?
I don't think you understand. There's ample evidence in history to show us that the written word does matter, that oral traditions can become lost very easily with cultural shifts etc. (do I really need to give a list of examples?). Standardized names written in textbooks and field guides will be inevitably memorized by new generations of scientists, bureaucrats, birders, and casual birdwatchers, and eventually supplant the real vernacular names. Add to that what Henning said about the recent history of scholarly/scientific arrogance in Germany, and you should be able to see that those are very rational concerns and not just the ramblings of the usual suspects.After reading the OP, I was worried that this will devolve into a discussion on vernacular names. Seroously people, those do not matter, people will still call birds what they want and if they seriously need to sort a confusion, they always have the Latin system to check, where is the problem?
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong about the list issue, but it's not the topic of the thread.Can we rather return to the real issue at hand, namely:
Can people please stop ******* up WP listing on an annual basis?
So you could set up a list where you had the option of ticking Ziegenmelker, or of ticking Nachtschwalbe . . . or, if you want to boost your totals, tick both? 3
Hi,
That wouldn't really give you a competitive advantage as everyone else using the same system would get the same boost automatically
Regards,
Henning
Isn't that the point?
I'm sure that most WP listers will apply IOC or Clements, I doubt than many (any) will take the ruling of any national committee, over either, especially if losing a tick?
What a national committee does or doesn't count, doesn't matter in the context of a uniform, WP list compiled by a recognised body. What you'd end up with is a national list for every country rather than a WP list. I personally use the IOC and rigidly stick to it, wherever I am, simple.
I'd like to ask Jan, if this is such an issue for you, how do you count your WP list?
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong about the list issue, but it's not the topic of the thread.
I count my WP list according to rules of the Czech competition, which are exactly as I stated above: for a bird to tick, it has to be cat. A or C in country of observation. As taxonomy, we use IOC and there is a list of species, but that still doesn't mean that every species should tick in every country. As an example, Wood Duck is on the list but does not tick in Czech Republic (where no breeding in the wild has ever documented afaik). The German list is then quite important, because it used to have a lot of C's that aren't on the Czech list - again for a good reason, if you wanna tick Parakeets in WP, you certainly need to it in a place where they actually breed, not just someone's pet on a morning flyabout ...
Except for those who refuse to use one or the other name on principleHi,
That wouldn't really give you a competitive advantage as everyone else using the same system would get the same boost automatically
Regards,
Henning
Like I refuse to use the renaming of Black Vulture (Mönchsgeier) with a ridiculous name that means "pale greyish-white vulture".
'S obvious. What we need is a European Fair Ticking Association (EFTA) which would have a single list controlled by a European Unified Recording Organisation (Euro) using the European Recording Mechanism (ERM). Rarities would be reported via a hotline (EURING).
Birders from states outside the ERM on its inception say, at the end of March this year, would not be permitted to keep a WP list and would instead have a West European B***S*** Count.
Competitive listing would be under the control of the International Olympic Committee.
All listing and recording would, naturally, be in English, the only truly world-wide language.
John
Except for those who refuse to use one or the other name on principle
Like I refuse to use the renaming of Black Vulture (Mönchsgeier) with a ridiculous name that means "pale greyish-white vulture".
Hi,
"Mönchsgeier" is another one of those names with religious connotation ... wonder how long that one will remain!
Regards,
Henning
Which birds have been renamed for this reason?
Are the American's considering renaming Cardinals and what about Bishops?
Which birds have been renamed for this reason?
I believe "Dompfaff" and "Nonnengans" fell out of favour because of their religious connotations. However, my impression was that "Dompfaff" was a Protestant name poking fun at the ornate of catholic priests, so it might not have been as popular in Catholic parts of Germany.
Wait before someone learns Czech and finds that we call some birds literally "little popes"!