new petition re driven grouse shooting (1 Viewer)

[speyghillie]

As a guy who lives in Southern England where every canal, river, gravel pit and lake is surrounded by anglers, mostly not elite ones paying enormous sums for fly fishing of salmon but eking out their leisure funds for local patch coarse fishing, I wonder why you think your location might add to, rather than detract from, your case.

The reason I mentioned where I live is because the days of the elite paying vast sums of money to Salmon fish is long gone and has been for sometime, the privately owned beats on the rivers have weeks un-fished that they would fill years ago, the demand for Salmon fishing in Scotland has fallen through the floor the last few years, partly because it is much cheaper to fish Norway or Russia and for more, and much bigger fish.

There have been a couple of cases of summering Ospreys disappearing "in suspicious circumstances" in Northumberland over the last 15-20 years at times when one wouldn't expect them to be moving

What kind of evidence is that, and how is it related to fishing, i do know for a fact that some Ospreys have been fitted with trackers... and they don't work, there is an Osprey ring number RED 8T that i see almost every morning and the tracker hasn't worked in 8 years.... and its still on his back.
With sweeping statements and no evidence i feel fishing will be next, will leave it there.
Thanks Gordon.

 

[Sharp Shin]

Oh dear! Alan and Gordon's 'slippery slope' argument is beginning to get to me. What if banning driven grouse shooting led to banning all shooting, and this led to banning fishing, and that led to banning wearing tweed, and that led to a ban on signs saying 'duck or grouse'. I mean, where will it all end? How could we have been so foolish as to ban the slave trade? It might have led to a banning of all free trade. How could we have been so foolish as to give votes to women? It might have led to giving votes to primary school children. I mean, you just don't know where it might all lead to, do you?

 

[MJB]

...signs saying 'duck or grouse'.

If you don't duck, you get hit by a low-flying grouse, which makes you grouse about it, and if you do duck, you see neither...
MJB

 

[speyghillie]

Oh dear! Alan and Gordon's 'slippery slope' argument is beginning to get to me. What if banning driven grouse shooting led to banning all shooting, and this led to banning fishing, and that led to banning wearing tweed, and that led to a ban on signs saying 'duck or grouse'. I mean, where will it all end? How could we have been so foolish as to ban the slave trade? It might have led to a banning of all free trade. How could we have been so foolish as to give votes to women? It might have led to giving votes to primary school children. I mean, you just don't know where it might all lead to, do you?

What a ridiculous statement.

As a guy who lives in Southern England where every canal, river, gravel pit and lake is surrounded by anglers, mostly not elite ones paying enormous sums for fly fishing of salmon but eking out their leisure funds for local patch coarse fishing, I wonder why you think your location might add to, rather than detract from, your case.

If you knew anything about fishing you would know that some Carp poles for course fishing are more expensive than weeks of Salmon fishing, while I have no time for the Grouse shooting and would happily see it completely banned, some of the statements are based on guesswork.
Gordon.

 

[Mickr]

Hi Nutcracker and everybody else,
Having said that, some illegal activity is associated with fishing interests, particularly the wealthier salmon fisheries: Ospreys, Cormorants, Goosanders, Otters, etc., being killed illegally on some rivers. But the problem is much less than on the grouse moors.

I have to say this statement worries me, can some one point me to the evidence that wealthy Salmon fisheries illegally kill Ospreys, if is very rare to see Cormorants on the rivers, only a few in winter, Goosanders are shot under license, I guide to wildlife and have never heard of Ospreys being shot ?
And while I do know foxes are killed on Grouse moors, I know the RSPB also kill masses of foxes, the water is a little muddier than some people think, and I have to say I do think its the short end of the wedge which is a shame.
The real thing that will stop the Grouse shooting is the new money owners who want it to be something different than the old Victorian hunting, shooting brigade, those days are gone on more and more Highland Estates.
Thanks Gordon.

I haven't fished for years, when I did fish I enjoyed the wildlife at least as much as the fishing. My best day ever fishing was the first time that I was able to watch an Osprey which wasn't on TV or a photograph. That day will live with me forever as it was probably 25 years ago and they were much rarer than they are now.

As for Ospreys being shot, I can't answer that but an Osprey died in Derbyshire and it's legs were broken which strongly suggested that it had been in a trap. It probably wasn't the target species but that just proves that traps are indiscriminate and even legal traps kill protected birds like Ring Ouzels.

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/1-0...-killed-peak/story-28662164-detail/story.html

I don't think any other form of hunting or angling have anything to worry about as they aren't highly dependent on criminality and they don't have a scorched earth policy.

 

[speyghillie]

I haven't fished for years, when I did fish I enjoyed the wildlife at least as much as the fishing. My best day ever fishing was the first time that I was able to watch an Osprey which wasn't on TV or a photograph. That day will live with me forever as it was probably 25 years ago and they were much rarer than they are now.

Nicely said, I never met a fisherman that didn't love watching wildlife as much as fishing, and part of the reason most go fishing, its pretty boring on its own, but when your down the river you have some special days... and not with the fish..... but the wildlife you encounter .
Gordon.

 

[John B (not the sloop)]

Counter petition alert!

Stand by your beds! :eek!: The following is on the UK.GOV petitions website:

Protect grouse Moors and grouse shooting
Grouse moors and grouse shooting are an integral part of moorland management both for the grouse and other native wildlife such and lapwing and stone curlew it also helps support of local businesses and jobs in the local areas this cannot be banned
Hear is a link to the countryside alienate website for more information on how grouse moors benefit the environment and the facts behind it.

It's that shadowy "Countryside Alienate" organisation again. It's funny that the originators clearly don't know what a stone curlew is (or what punctuation is either). :-O

 

[Robin Edwards]

both for the grouse and other native wildlife such and lapwing and stone curlew

Speaks volumes doesn't it. How these country folk in the uplands know their birds!

Maybe the RSPB have been missing out trying to improve the conservation of the Stone Curlew in the Brecklands instead of the heather moorlands?

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

It does amuse me when the shooting lobby tout their conservationist credentials by citing the increased breeding success of Curlew and Golden Plover on grouse moors, when it is an unintended consequence of moor management.

.

Breeding success of curlew/lapwings/golden plover is an unintended consequence of moor management. If grouse shooting is banned these species will decline. Look at what happened to grouse moors in Wales, when shooting of grouse ceased. There were big declines in waders.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

It does amuse me when the shooting lobby tout their conservationist credentials by citing the increased breeding success of Curlew and Golden Plover on grouse moors, when it is an unintended consequence of moor management.

In addition Golden Plover are still shot by wildfowlers, albeit in probably small numbers. And as recently as 2010 the BASC and the Countryside Alliance fought hard to prevent Curlew being removed from the quarry list in Northern Ireland. They claimed that shooting didn't make any significant difference to Curlew numbers, maybe not "significant" but it can hardly have helped. In England too shooters fought its inclusion in the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act and some still claim it could be killed in England without problems.

Some moors I believe are taking out grassy parts which tend support greater numbers of meadows pipit. Decrease meadow pipit and decreases prey species available for Hen Harrier. It makes the moor less attractive for Harriers.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

I don't think that's true. Curlew numbers, as well as those of most other breeding waders, have dropped markedly in Northumbs in recent years, and one major change has been increased drainage on moorland denying them the wet patches the newly hatched chicks require. Reseeding and fertilising of upland pastures doesn't help, but that's a separate issue.

Drainage of areas moors would definitively affect breedind waders.

 

[Farnboro John]

As a guy who lives in Southern England where every canal, river, gravel pit and lake is surrounded by anglers, mostly not elite ones paying enormous sums for fly fishing of salmon but eking out their leisure funds for local patch coarse fishing, I wonder why you think your location might add to, rather than detract from, your case.[/B]

If you knew anything about fishing you would know that some Carp poles for course fishing are more expensive than weeks of Salmon fishing, while I have no time for the Grouse shooting and would happily see it completely banned, some of the statements are based on guesswork.
Gordon.

Actually I've had plenty of conversations with fishermen who like to talk about the Kingfisher that sat on the end of their pole, the Grey Wagtails nesting by the bridge, the Mink crunching up Signal Crayfish on the far bank.... I have a fair idea about tackle costs, I just have no idea how much salmon rivers are charging for their beats. I guess it isn't a sustainable market rate now that salmon hunters can trot off for a vodka and a bit of (better) fishing with good old Vladimir Putin at lower cost..... a triumph for the open market! Time to drop the prices substantially or give up the industry. Good job Beaver tourism is coming up just in time to save the environment and local job market at the same time. Word to the wise - get some Beavers into the Highland basins as well as the Tay as quick as you can and facilitate the people who want to watch them, it might just support Salmon fishing continuing at lower prices!

Meanwhile, down with all crooked grouse shooters, their murderous employees and their ignorant adherents.

John

 

[Sharp Shin]

What a ridiculous statement.

Precisely. It was meant to be ridiculous. Reductio ad absurdum.

Anyway, probably worth getting back to the substance of this thread and discuss all those wonderful Stone Curlews on the grouse moors! Now, that really is ridiculous.

Stewart

 

[ProwlingBoy]

Some moors I believe are taking out grassy parts which tend support greater numbers of meadows pipit. Decrease meadow pipit and decreases prey species available for Hen Harrier. It makes the moor less attractive for Harriers.

Taking out the grassy parts is also likely to reduce numbers of other birds too. Black grouse prefer the in-bye land around the heather moors as do some of the waders.

 

[ProwlingBoy]

Breeding success of curlew/lapwings/golden plover is an unintended consequence of moor management. If grouse shooting is banned these species will decline. Look at what happened to grouse moors in Wales, when shooting of grouse ceased. There were big declines in waders.

Mark Avery and those who support the petition don't believe the solution is to ban driven grouse shooting and then do nothing. And should the petition be unsuccessful (after all only a debate is promised) grouse shooting and existing moor management practices won't prevent the decline of Curlews because it's linked to wider changes in agriculture. Predation by foxes isn't, on its own causing huge declines in Curlew numbers.

 

[Mickr]

I haven't fished for years, when I did fish I enjoyed the wildlife at least as much as the fishing. My best day ever fishing was the first time that I was able to watch an Osprey which wasn't on TV or a photograph. That day will live with me forever as it was probably 25 years ago and they were much rarer than they are now.

Nicely said, I never met a fisherman that didn't love watching wildlife as much as fishing, and part of the reason most go fishing, its pretty boring on its own, but when your down the river you have some special days... and not with the fish..... but the wildlife you encounter .
Gordon.

We need to protect our wildlife and that's why I signed the petition, I did it in the hope that future generations don't have to wait 20 or 30 years before seeing specific wildlife.

It's easier for you to see hen harriers in Scotland than it is for us in England but don't take that for granted.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

Mark Avery and those who support the petition don't believe the solution is to ban driven grouse shooting and then do nothing. And should the petition be unsuccessful (after all only a debate is promised) grouse shooting and existing moor management practices won't prevent the decline of Curlews because it's linked to wider changes in agriculture. Predation by foxes isn't, on its own causing huge declines in Curlew numbers.

What going to happen with all the driven grouse moors? Planted with exotic conifers? Overgrazed by sheep? Are RSPB going to buy out the moors?

Fragmentation of upland moors/heaths/bogs by forestry, more intensive management of farmland and the abandonment of some lands, leading to encroachment by scrub, gorse and dense rushes, have all affected curlews. Generalist predators like foxes have increased with these changes. Fox control a must in order to reverse decline in Curlew.

 

[Mickr]

Stand by your beds! :eek!: The following is on the UK.GOV petitions website:

Protect grouse Moors and grouse shooting
Grouse moors and grouse shooting are an integral part of moorland management both for the grouse and other native wildlife such and lapwing and stone curlew it also helps support of local businesses and jobs in the local areas this cannot be banned
Hear is a link to the countryside alienate website for more information on how grouse moors benefit the environment and the facts behind it.

It's that shadowy "Countryside Alienate" organisation again. It's funny that the originators clearly don't know what a stone curlew is (or what punctuation is either). :-O

That is visually horrendous and that's before looking at the content.

 

[ProwlingBoy]

What going to happen with all the driven grouse moors? Planted with exotic conifers? Overgrazed by sheep? Are RSPB going to buy out the moors?

Fragmentation of upland moors/heaths/bogs by forestry, more intensive management of farmland and the abandonment of some lands, leading to encroachment by scrub, gorse and dense rushes, have all affected curlews. Generalist predators like foxes have increased with these changes. Fox control a must in order to reverse decline in Curlew.

Your vision seems to be grouse moors or nothing. I have more faith in the RSPB and other conservation organisations solving some of these problems, which after all extend beyond Britain and Ireland. In the UK Curlews have retreated to the uplands, but they can be encouraged to return to wider range of habitats. Most importantly farmers need to be persuaded (or paid) to adopt (or re-adopt) practices that encouraged Curlew to nest on their land (as farmers have done with other species, eg the Stone Curlew in Norfolk). British tax payers (via the EU) are currently subsidising grouse moor owners, after all.

Curlews are unlikely to survive in numbers if they are only reduced to breeding on grouse moors. Grouse moor owners are only interested in grouse not Curlews and they're certainly not interested in Hen Harriers, Peregrines, Buzzards, Kites, Golden Eagles, Goshawks etc, etc, etc.

 

[John Cantelo]

What going to happen with all the driven grouse moors? Planted with exotic conifers? Overgrazed by sheep? Are RSPB going to buy out the moors?

I'm happy to be corrected by those with a greater depth of knowledge but I was under the impression that in many upland areas conifer plantations are not viable without heavy subsidy/tax breaks. Also, that planting would difficult in areas designated, as many are, as Areas of Outstanding Beauty (and other safeguards such as SSSIs, etc). Similarly, I thought that keeping too many sheep on moorland was generally a consequence of poorly directed or over-generous public subsidies.