Peregrine Falcon Harvest being Considered (1 Viewer)

[talon_dfa]

I would disagree with that statement. 99% of wildlife management policy is governed by statutes enacted by Congress and regulations promulgated by administrative agencies. A court's role in this area of law is thus generally limited to doing its best to interpret and apply statutes and regulations. You could blame Congress for enacting weak or wishy-washy laws, but I think blaming the courts is a reach.

Jim

I don't disagree that Congress (or State legislators) are ultimately responsible.

Endangered Species Act is a very strong law for protecting species.
Peregrines were protected by ESA.

Peregrine recovery met the Recovery plan objectives many years before they were removed from ESA protection (Tundrius removed in 1994, others removed in 1999).

What caused Peregrines to be removed from ESA protection? USFWS? Congress?

Does the law automatically add or remove species?
How do species get on or off the list?
Can USFWS add or remove species without comment?
What happens when there is disagreement?
Who decides?

I was recently told by a US Forest Service employee, that a majorty of their management budget is now being spent in court to defend their management decisions.

 

[pe'rigin]

Here in Ireland, falconers are allowed, under licence, to take young Peregrines from the nest under the supervision of a wildlife ranger. Though the numbers taken are limited, it still strikes me as a little unnecessary.

Interesting what Harry has written here, I didn’t know that they did take the young from the eyries. It raises a similar point that I have often wondered why they don’t adopt concerning the Golden Eagle introduction in England/Wales.

As most Eagles produce two eggs, with only one chick surviving, why not take the younger to artificially raise for release in Cumbria and Wales.

On the Peregrine question, it does seem a lot birds to abduct. If they do take this number then there must be a levy against the falconers. A balance should be struck where we the money is used to encourage nest building, enticing more Falcons into the North American cities.

The birds seem to be far safer breeding in our skyscraper-ridden world than in the wilds beyond.

 

[jerkin]

Peregrine Harvest

I have often wondered why they don’t adopt concerning the Golden Eagle introduction in England/Wales.

As most Eagles produce two eggs, with only one chick surviving, why not take the younger to artificially raise for release in Cumbria and Wales.

It would be great to see a release of Golden Eagles in the Lakes and in Wales.The subject is often brought up in raptor and falconry circles unfortunately no licences are issued these days to individuals or small groups to take surplus and the cost of captive Eagles is to inhibiting to small privet groups and of course DEFRA would have to license a release conservationists claim the lakes cant hold more than a single Pair and the pressure of tourism is to high Scottish birds visit the lakes and Wales but don't seam to wont to stay and breed maybe the pressure of tourism is to much,or the habitat not sufficient for long-term sustainability of a healthy population of eagles.Maybe young hacked eagles that see humans at a distance may be more tolerant of people in the future.It would be nice to see something positive come from English Nature or the RSPB on the Golden Eagle in England and Wales

 

[Merle]

To everybody on this thread...

Please learn a little about what you are posting about before you rave about how awful it is. The use of wild taken birds for falconry is entirely sustainable and it is much better for birds if they are taken from the wild rather than captive bred. Do some research with an open mind and you will see what I mean.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but I do not like it when opinions are made before the facts are clear.

 

[Greg Butler]

Personally I don't have a problem with a sustainable harvest of Peregrines or any other Raptor and wish the NAFA best of luck, as this will increase the captive Gene-pool of Falcons in captivity should the population crash in the future.As responsible falconers and Conservationists NAFE members would offer any birds in the event of a population crash to breeding programs like the Peregrine Fund so young could be hacked back as they have in the past.lets face it I doubt if the Peregrine would have recovered without the help of American Falconers.Sitting on your butt watching a small population inbreed doesnt work ask the RSPB thay wasted 50 years on the Red Kite when the way forward was proposed as early as the 1970s ie reintroduction.Fortunatly the government led the way releasing a mixed Gene pool of birds and now Red Kites have a future

I agree 100% without the falconers and the peregrine fund there would still be hardly any Peregrines to take. If someone loves something deeply the look after it!

 

[Motmot]

The big problem I see with the harvest is to control the market after it. Once there's wild peregrines on the market there's no way to control the loads of ilegal birds that inevitably will be also taken and put in the bussiness (it's loads of money and a big World market, you know). 300 legal falcons turn into 3000 or more "looking legal" falcons quite easily when some of them are legal and can be used to hide the big bussiness behind. Some of you may think it will be controlled by the US organizations, bullshit. I'm sure there're many "experts" out there already filling their false documents or paying BIG dollars to buy ilegally their new "fighters". Also some of those harvested falcons will surely end up hunting bustards, sandgrouse, storks etc in Spain, the Middle East, North Africa etc bringing some species to at least local extinctions. To believe and call "sport" or "keeping a genetic pool" or "cultural tradition" or whatever the activities many (most) falconers do around the world is simply naive and ridiculous. This is not just another professional activity done by a group of actual experts, scientists or well informed/trained workers, it is mainly a potentially very dangerous hobby growing crazy in the last decades imo.
ALL falconers prefer wild falcons and some of them are bloody rich, unscrupulous and ignorant enough to pay whatever for one of those ilegal birds. In fact, they've been doing it for long. Don't make it easier for them.

 

[Greg Butler]

These days it is easy to check, have you never heard of DNA!
The amount of falcons being bred in captivity is now quite huge and the price of a falcon is quite reasonable. Yes as you say some falconers would prefer wild taken falcons but the great majority now prefer captive bred imprinted birds which are much easier to breed with using AI. All this spin about huge prices payed for falcons is a load of old rubbish. It may have happened in the past when birds were scarce because of the pesticides and captive breeding was unknown but the world moves on. Without the knowledge gained by falconers in the art of captive breeding there would be very few wild falcons in the US. The same techniques are being used to to breed other rarer birds like the Maritius Kestrel and the Phillipine Eagle. Don't just get on your high horse look at both sides of the equation. Yes there will always be the odd bad egg in the basket but before you start having a go at falconers just look at the history of bird watches and the collecting of eggs driving some species to the brink!
Greg

The big problem I see with the harvest is to control the market after it. Once there's wild peregrines on the market there's no way to control the loads of ilegal birds that inevitably will be also taken and put in the bussiness (it's loads of money and a big World market, you know). 300 legal falcons turn into 3000 or more "looking legal" falcons quite easily when some of them are legal and can be used to hide the big bussiness behind. Some of you may think it will be controlled by the US organizations, bullshit. I'm sure there're many "experts" out there already filling their false documents or paying BIG dollars to buy ilegally their new "fighters". Also some of those harvested falcons will surely end up hunting bustards, sandgrouse, storks etc in Spain, the Middle East, North Africa etc bringing some species to at least local extinctions. To believe and call "sport" or "keeping a genetic pool" or "cultural tradition" or whatever the activities many (most) falconers do around the world is simply naive and ridiculous. This is not just another professional activity done by a group of actual experts, scientists or well informed/trained workers, it is mainly a potentially very dangerous hobby growing crazy in the last decades imo.
ALL falconers prefer wild falcons and some of them are bloody rich, unscrupulous and ignorant enough to pay whatever for one of those ilegal birds. In fact, they've been doing it for long. Don't make it easier for them.

 

[Motmot]

I'm not having a go at all falconers, some are responsible. The "load of old rubbish" you mention indicates there are no stolen wild falcons sold and also that the DNA id will work fine not giving a chance to bad practices, yeah right. CSI teams all over the world taking blood samples and stopping the black market. Wonderland.

 

[Greg Butler]

I'm not having a go at all falconers, some are responsible. The "load of old rubbish" you mention indicates there are no stolen wild falcons sold and also that the DNA id will work fine not giving a chance to bad practices, yeah right. CSI teams all over the world taking blood samples and stopping the black market. Wonderland.

I didn't mean to imply that there are no stolen falcons, as I said there are always some bad apples in the barrel as in all walks of life. Wild take is really restricted to the US where there are a lot less falconers than in Europe! Young falcons taken in their first year flown and later released have been shown to have a greater chance for survival. Also the falconry laws in the US restrict the number of birds a falconer can posses at any one time. Being able to take and release removes the monetary value of the bird and so should reduce any illegal wild take. The US Fish and Game are also very strict in their policing of falconers. The load of old rubbish you refer to was about the inflated prices that you see quoted for birds of prey of all descriptions! I don't want to get into a heated argument just see that people have a balanced view!
Greg

 

[heike]

Why would peregrines decline if not for people?

Exactly - get rid of the people & no problem - eh - that wont work -hmm

 

[heike]

These days it is easy to check, have you never heard of DNA!
The amount of falcons being bred in captivity is now quite huge and the price of a falcon is quite reasonable. Yes as you say some falconers would prefer wild taken falcons but the great majority now prefer captive bred imprinted birds which are much easier to breed with using AI. All this spin about huge prices payed for falcons is a load of old rubbish. It may have happened in the past when birds were scarce because of the pesticides and captive breeding was unknown but the world moves on. Without the knowledge gained by falconers in the art of captive breeding there would be very few wild falcons in the US. The same techniques are being used to to breed other rarer birds like the Maritius Kestrel and the Phillipine Eagle. Don't just get on your high horse look at both sides of the equation. Yes there will always be the odd bad egg in the basket but before you start having a go at falconers just look at the history of bird watches and the collecting of eggs driving some species to the brink!
Greg

New here - and a falconer - who do you think does more for raptors of any description, people who handle daily, breed, care for 24/7 live for, etc etc, or those who are romantic and ignorant of the real facts and dream of doing - if they had the commitment and dedication -

correct people are the problem - habitat

Heike

 

[maersk]

"Forgive me if I am wrong...I am sure you will correct me if I am, but was it not the USFWS who effectively allowed the culling of seals in the atlantic (with pressure from your fisheries) which lead to a poplation crash of cod, since the seals which were blamed for reducing cod numbers were actually ensuring cod survival by naturally maintaining the kelp forrest which young cod need in order to grow? If I am wrong then please accept my apology. BTW I did look at some of the literature. My view remains the same."




actually it was the canadians who culled (and still cull) seals for their supposed predation on cod.

 

[PandionMlt]

in this day and age, i dnt believe that any bird i to be taken from he wild. where shall we stop? where shall we draw the line then?

 

[Ryan P]

and why not just take 1-2 chicks per nest instead? By taking immatures, you're removing birds that have already survived the chick and post-fledging stage (when many will naturally die anyway), so you're having a direct impact on recruits. By taking chicks, you not only by-pass the welfare issue (catching wild fullgrown birds) but are also going to be taking many birds that would otherwise die. You also know the exact origin of the birds, and mortality among hand-reared chicks will be lower than for stressed full-grown birds. So even on a practical level, it's staggeringly stupid.

most falconers release their birds after a few seasons anyway.By the way just because their fully grown doesn't mean their safe.Would you prefer to see a dead peregrine in the wild or one alive in captivity still hunting?

MMM a nice tasty Peking Pipit. What is the purpose of hunting Larks and Pipits.

to feed their falcons!!if Wild raptors catch larks then why can't captive ones do it?

 

[ColonelBlimp]

Wild raptors catch larks then why can't captive ones do it?

Because captive raptors have no real predator-prey relationship, i.e. their numbers are only really dictated by the number of people that want to feed them, and not limited by wild prey availability. Therefore, you run the risk of damaging over-predated upon populations.

 

[Roy Priest]

Er.....why???

However the statistics are dressed up, however they are presented or justified, falconers will still be taking [up to 300] birds out of the wild every year.

The truly joyous fact that the Peregrine is now off the Endangered Species list shouldn't be used as a permission slip for a harvest. It's equivalent to beating a bloke up, waiting til he's recovered and out of hospital, and beating him up again.

The only peregrine that was endangered was the eastern anatum peregrine. The Tundra, western anatum and peales falcons were never in danger. Those peregrines you are joyfully quoting are a mish-mash of peales, anatum,brokeii and other peregrines. Most bred in breeding projects run by falconers.
These peregrines they are proposing to harvest are first year birds not adult breeding birds. The mortality rate in these birds is very high. If it goes like it used to, these birds will be flown through the hunting season then released to continue their migration northward. .

 

[Roy Priest]

http://falconryforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-7289.html

Pretty galling that taxpayers money is being paid to farmers to encourage skylarks and thrushes, while these people get licences to kill them just for sport. If you did it with a gun or trap, it would be illegal, but somehow a tame raptor is allowed.

Funny how these rotten falconers are applying for a legal licence. I guess falconers must not be tax payers either.

 

[Ryan P]

falconers see wild taking as only "borrowing and saving " birds from nature that would otherwise die.Then they give back they back what they took after a few seasons.Once again would you prefer to see a dead raptor or an alive one?
to those of you who are anti-falconry..get out there and experience falconry and do some research then say whether or not you are against falconry

 

[Greg Butler]

As long as there is a healthy population and they are not endangered why are people causing all this fuss? I don’t hear the same sort of objection when pigeons, ducks geese etc are being shot! At least the harvest of falcons is controlled which is a lot more than can be said about the fate of many other birds. Most of these birds will be returned to the wild as adults with a much greater chance of survival.

 

[HawkMom]

Study showing falconry techniques improve survival rate of rehabilitated raptors.

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1647/1082-6742(2006)20[15:FLAADF]2.0.CO;2