Redpoll ID (1 Viewer)

[hannu]

Hannu, I will repeat the point I made in post 18
..some of the features shown by Arctic Redpoll and Common Redpoll overlap but based on the percentage of features, this bird shows them all. If it only showed a selection of the features for an Arctic, then I would certainly be 'on the fence' but I think that if a bird shows all the features then you have to say it is one or at least has a very good chance of being a pukka Arctic.
Paul

All those individuals , which have contradictory features ( I meaned that in this case there are some features (in my mind), which fit to Mealy, but not to Arctic), I don't id to Arctic this kind of birds without measuring and 'hand identification' !

Paul,
so you think (taken from my messages #28, #53, #62)
that Arctic Redpoll can have
- darker brown colour in the ear-coverts
- upper tail-coverts dark brown with pale brownish margins
- culmen of upper mandible, which is slightly down curved
- brownish-pale head, throat and upperflanks without buffish colour and that kind of birds are more common

in addition to,
you think that it's equal typical to both of species
- long bill
- wide, long and dark brown streaks in the flanks
- streaks in the ear-coverts
- forming evenly thick and unbroken dark longitudinal lines on the mantle
- clear and long streaks in the nape

Does it right this conclusion to your reference ?

Maybe you have then lots of Arctics observations !

 

[Fair Islander]

All those individuals , which have contradictory features ( I meaned that in this case there are some features (in my mind), which fit to Mealy, but not to Arctic), I don't id to Arctic this kind of birds without measuring and 'hand identification' !

Paul,
so you think (taken from my messages #28, #53, #62)
that Arctic Redpoll can have
- darker brown colour in the ear-coverts
- upper tail-coverts dark brown with pale brownish margins
- culmen of upper mandible, which is slightly down curved
- brownish-pale head, throat and upperflanks without buffish colour and that kind of birds are more common

Hannu, at the risk of repeating what has been previously said (and boring viewers of this thread to death) and will try and answer your question above. Yes, I do think that Arctic Redpoll can show
- darker brown colour in the ear-coverts
- upper tail-coverts dark brown with pale brownish margins
- brownish-pale head, throat and upperflanks without buffish colour

because here is one in this link!
http://www.praktejder.se/images/0411/Snosiska1MN-041101.htm

Have a look at this bird (I have already referred to this bird and link previously). It is undoubtedly an Arctic Redpoll, yet it shows the features that you are stating (or asking if?) Arctic Redpoll cannot show. AND, as well as the ear coverts, upper tail coverts, brown head, etc just look at that mantle - thick broad, even streaking. AND, the flank streaking is thicker, more intense and much more obvious than on the dutch bird. Not good for Arctic???

I think the dutch bird has a lot more pro-arctic features than the bird in this link - even though it is undoubtedly an Arctic. If you cover up the rump in the bird in the link, it doesn't really look good for Arctic - which just shows how variable they are.

To reiterate what I have said previously, every feature that can be seen on the dutch bird can be found on an Arctic Redpoll.

Regards, Paul

 

[hannu]

Yes, I do think that Arctic Redpoll can show
- darker brown colour in the ear-coverts
- upper tail-coverts dark brown with pale brownish margins
- brownish-pale head, throat and upperflanks without buffish colour
because here is one in this link!
http://www.praktejder.se/images/0411/Snosiska1MN-041101.htm

That Swedish bird have buffish ear coverts (thus yellowish brown), not darker brown. And Buffish colour is in throat and upper flanks, and nape and even supercilium, not brownish-pale composition. Upper tail coverts are not so dark as in Dutch bird, thought the colour is quite similar, but different tinge and there is dark shaft stripe. This kind of shaft stripes are quite typical to Arctic Redpolls.
Also colour of the streaks in the mantle are very dark, blackish brown or even dull black. The mantle is cocktail black, white and slightly yellowish brown.
Streaks in the flanks are fine and black, resembling shaft stripes.

Dutch birds mantle is mixture dark brown, pale brown and whitish.
Dutch bird is too 'drearily' identical in color in the manner of speaking .

I have also discussed with two well-known Finnish birders about this case and they said that bird is more Mealy than Arctic in overall impression.
Also some Arctic Redpolls can have stripes in the rump.

Follow Mealy Redpoll has seen in Belgium in November 2005
http://users.pandora.be/peteradriaens/Redpoll/

Also this kind of strange Redpoll has seen lately in Belgium
http://users.pandora.be/libellen/misc/barmsijs.htm

 

[hannu]

To reiterate what I have said previously, every feature that can be seen on the dutch bird can be found on an Arctic Redpoll.

This is also partly true, but all these features are never in the same Arctic Redpoll individual at one time and often colours of features have different tinge!

 

[hannu]

More photos from Strange Redpolls from this autumn ( I think that there is some kind of invasion of strange Redpolls ?!)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/520/witstuitigebarmsijs191105zeebr.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5013/witstuitigebarmsijs191105zeebr1.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9681/witstuitigebarmsijs191105zeebr2.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2017/witstuitigebarmsijs191105zeebr3.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7044/witstuitigebarmsijs191105zeebr4.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5420/witstuitigebarmsijs191105zeebr5.jpg

 

[hannu]

Goudvink, Does there have any new views or ideas about your bird among Dutch birders ?

 

[Mike Pennington]

Another interesting Arctic

http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/6carhor303.html

 

[hannu]

Arctic Redpolls seems to be often bigger streaks in the under flanks and more finer stripes in the upper flanks (the different of the size is obvious big), whereas redpolls streaks in the flanks are quite often rather same size.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Arctic Redpolls seems to be often bigger streaks in the under flanks and more finer stripes in the upper flanks (the different of the size is obvious big), whereas redpolls streaks in the flanks are quite often rather same size.

Hannu

perhaps more important is the fact that the streaking on the flanks varies hugely within and between the two species at different ages

some 1st winter Arctics are very similar to Redpoll in terms of flank streaking

several people have made a very good case for Arctic based on a lot of features; I don't think there's any chance of agreement on this bird

Tim

 

[Goudvink]

Goudvink, Does there have any new views or ideas about your bird among Dutch birders ?

No, it is still the same most are critical because they expect a more classic induvidual (but most don't rule out that this not could be an Arctic).

About your mentioned Belgium birds:

The field bird (which are all the same bird) is clearly an Mealy to me. Because this is an adult male and if it is an Artic this should be the most striking plumage there is in Artic. This bird look clearly to dark for an adult male Artic. (In my opinion it is important to compare birds of the same age/sex).

The trapped bird is also a more difficult one. (Altough the wingbars look more buffish and the rump looks more streaked then the Dutch bird).

To conclude about the Dutch bird: I think we should accept that we could not ID every redpoll, as there states in many guides: Some birds are best left unindentfied. Perhaps is this the solution for the Dutch bird?

 

[Edward woodwood]

Some birds are best left unindentfied. Perhaps is this the solution for the Dutch bird?

now why didn't someone suggest that earlier?

 

[hannu]

About your mentioned Belgium birds:

The field bird (which are all the same bird) is clearly an Mealy to me. Because this is an adult male and if it is an Artic this should be the most striking plumage there is in Artic. This bird look clearly to dark for an adult male Artic. (In my opinion it is important to compare birds of the same age/sex).

Yes, it's important to compare of the same age/sex, but age of your bird is identified only from the pointed tail feathers, which is one good feature, but in safety we should find something else from plumage which confirm the age. As everyone knows, bird can lose its tail accidentally (although possibility to that is very limited).

I agree that this case should leave unidentified. Everyone can do their own decision !

 

[JANJ]

All in # 85 seems to be adult birds according to tail feathers, broad and rounded in the tips, and rather fresh, compared to 1st winters, with narrower feathers and more worn pointed tips, and with the partial moult in 1cy, which include wing coverts body- feathers, some inner (central tail feathers), then with rounded tips, and moult contrast to worn and pointed outers, adults fresher) I agree with Goudvink on the importance to compare birds of the same age/sex, because they differ.
I also belive that the subject bird is slightly closer to Arctic, but according to the well known difficulties concerning the ID of these species (species, which they still are) It also smells trouble
But that doesn´t mean that I´m getting tired of all the posting!
JanJ

 

[Mike Pennington]

now why didn't someone suggest that earlier?

They did, as you know, Tim. <big grin>

Some people think it can be identified anyway.

I personally can't see a good reason why it isn't an Arctic (some might say that's the wrong way to identify birds but it's Sherlock Holmes logic). If I saw it within the breeding area I would probably claim it as one. Whether I would be that confident if it was a vagrant I'm not so sure and certainly that is why the Dutch are being so cautious. Certainly, the bird I saw last autumn in Shetland I considered to be the limit of what I would identify (although partly because of the streaked undertail, not other features) and I would agree that this bird is probably more difficult.

What is most intriguing is the Finnish opinion (and Hannu does suggest that others agree with him) that the bird is not Arctic, and they presumably see more than any of us. I still think that the bird on birdphoto.fi site has many of the characters which have been suggested as those which prove that the Dutch bird isn't Arctic.

So, still think it's Arctic. Intrigued that the Finnish opinion is that it isn't Arctic. But still not convinced by the arguments put forward, as they are based on characters that I'm either not convinced are important or have not considered/noticed before.

Incidentally, I base my experience on about 30 Arctics of both races, in the hand and in the field, but all as vagrants in Shetland, while I would see between a handful and several hundred Common Redpolls in a year (both races, probably more rostrata than I thought!) but haven't seen Lesser regularly since the 1980s.

 

[hannu]

What is most intriguing is the Finnish opinion (and Hannu does suggest that others agree with him) that the bird is not Arctic, and they presumably see more than any of us.

This case is indeed problematic and as I said, it's more Mealy (= not definitely Mealy) than Arctic in my mind (< the result on ground of these photos) and this bird should catch by nets to identify. The final result can be that we can not identify that bird either in the hand. Those two finnish guys said also that they are not sure about this case because they became acquainted with the case so short time, but first overall impression fit more to Mealy. I have seen hundreds of Arctic Redpolls during 25y birding and I'm quite prudent to id Arctic Redpolls generally, although those birds are quite common here in winters. We Finnish birders can see tens of Arctics in best days and when we have that big invasion in several years ago, we have 1000-2000 Arctic Redpolls in one flock near the Oulu-area, if I remember right. I will continue to study in these species and I must pay attension more the variation of redpolls+arctic redpolls in this area. I'll try to get some to update the articles of identification of Arctic Redpoll, because there is a lot of details, which are rise up through the development of birding. :scribe:

Thanx Mike, Paul, Jan, Tim, others and specially Goudvink :t: about this conversation.

:gn:

 

[Goudvink]

Thanx Mike, Paul, Jan, Tim, others and specially Goudvink :t: about this conversation.

I want to thank every-one who has responsed on this subject! :clap:

In spite of there is not an unambiguous answer about the ID of this bird, I think this was a very interesting and teachable topic! It makes clear that Redpolls are not always that easy as we hope, but maybe that makes them just such interesting birds!

We shall submit this bird to our rarity committee (CDNA), and they have the heavy task to judgment this bird! (I think they are not going to accept it as Artic because they have to be sure that they can rule out an Mealy, but we shall see!).

Hopefully I am now going to find an "classic" Artic redpoll!

With kind regards,

Willem van Rijswijk

 

[Fair Islander]

I want to thank every-one who has responsed on this subject! :clap:

In spite of there is not an unambiguous answer about the ID of this bird, I think this was a very interesting and teachable topic! It makes clear that Redpolls are not always that easy as we hope, but maybe that makes them just such interesting birds!

We shall submit this bird to our rarity committee (CDNA), and they have the heavy task to judgment this bird! (I think they are not going to accept it as Artic because they have to be sure that they can rule out an Mealy, but we shall see!).

Hopefully I am now going to find an "classic" Artic redpoll!

With kind regards,

Willem van Rijswijk

Willem

just received the latest issue of Dutch Birding (the rarity issue) and recognised the photograph of the Arctic Redpoll (plate 507) which started this thread. Congratulations on your submission to CDNA and the acceptance of the record.

all the best, Paul