Redstart, West Cork, Ireland (1 Viewer)

[Lissagriffin]

My first impression seeing this bird yesterday was Common Redstart, but on reviewing the photos I took, I’m thinking more towards Black. The amount of white in the wing seems unusual either way. I’d be grateful for others’ opinions.

 

[lou salomon]

it's a black redstart.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,
I agree with Lou and ApusApus, its a Black Redstart. And I agree with you, such a distinct, contrasting whitish panel formed by tertials (and some secondaries, too. hard to judge here, ) is notable in your bird.
Apart from this, your bird has the typical smooth mouse-grey body with some warmer brownish tinge in the ear-coverts of female/"cairii-morph” males.
But such a distinct pale wing panel is a sign of some 1 cy males. I have looked at Black Redstarts this summer/autumn, and I am quite sure, that your bird can be identified as a male with confidence.(can older males look like this, such uniform mouse-grey with warm brown ear-coverts?)
More, it seems to have a distinct, narrow wingbar of the greater coverts. Some Black Redstarts in autumn have this, some not. But I dont know, what to make of it.

Please look here:

https://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/species/phoenicurus-ochruros/sexing/

Nicolai B, Schmidt C, Schmidt F-U (1996) Gefiedermerkmale, Maße und Alterskennzeichen des. Hausrotschwanzes Phoenicurus ochruros.
available here: Limicola: Downloads

 

[mummymonkey]

Very decent record for Cork?

 

[HH75]

Very decent record for Cork?

Annual scarce migrant in spring and especially autumn, with some remaining to overwinter. Always nice to stumble across, but not truly rare.

 

[Lissagriffin]

Thanks, guys. I was starting to wonder about eastern races of Common. Black Redstart is very definitely the consensus.

 

[lou salomon]

Thanks, guys. I was starting to wonder about eastern races of Common. Black Redstart is very definitely the consensus.

the usual european subspecies of BR ('gibraltariensis') has a white flash in wing too, sometimes also visible in immature looking birds.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Lou and all,

does this mean, that this bird here can identified as a male with confidence?
More, can it identified as a 1cy male with confidence? Or can older (2 cy or even older) males look like this bird?

Thank you!

 

[KenM]

Hello Lou and all,

does this mean, that this bird here can identified as a male with confidence?
More, can it identified as a 1cy male with confidence? Or can older (2 cy or even older) males look like this bird?

Thank you!

It does look extremely pale?
Am wondering if it’s a female of the Eastern race samamisicus?

Cheers

 

[Butty]

can older (2 cy or even older) males look like this bird?

Up to 1 year old - yes (this is well-established).

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

It does look extremely pale?
Am wondering if it’s a female of the Eastern race samamisicus?

Cheers

Hello Ken,

please note that samamisicus is a ssp of Common Redstart, while this bird is a Black Redstart. My question was about the pale wing-panel. I agree with you, such a contrasting and evident wing panel is at the extreme end of variation in such female-type autumn birds from Germany. Male-looking Black Redstarts in autumn with a darker, blackish grey (vs smooth mouse-grey like this bird) and a contrasting real black face mask almost allways have a more contrasting, whitish wing panel.

Thank you Butty! Thats what I wanted to know!

 

[KenM]

Hello Ken,

please note that samamisicus is a ssp of Common Redstart, while this bird is a Black Redstart.

Alexander hi,

It wasn’t the white edging to the tertials that concerned me, I have seen this on a number of species, presumably “immature” male and females can show this condition?

The general paleness of the bird is not something that I’ve seen in the UK or elsewhere in Europe.
Indeed, trawling the net for images of such a pale type as the OP’s bird left me struggling to find a match.
Eventually finding one that (was still darker) prompted me to compare pale female samamisicus that seemed more compatible?
I’m still in the dark as to why the consensus is Black Redstart and if it is, would it not be of an Eastern race ochruros or semirufus?

Cheers

 

[Butty]

I’m still in the dark as to why the consensus is Black Redstart

Because the upper- and undersides barely differ in tone.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Thank you Ken.

that was my question. As said, such a contrasting pale (whitish) wingpanel is at the extreme end of variation in autumn female-plumaged Black Redstart. And my question was, if this is enough to sex it as a male with confidence (or if females can show this to this extent, too). And if this is enough to ID it as a 1cy male? No, 2 cy males can look like this, thank you Butty!

Regarding the paleness of this bird. Yes, this bird is slightly paler than an 100% ID-book female-type Black Redstart in autumn. But its within variation and the smooth mousegrey tone and the warmer brown hues in the face (in many less evident in fresh plumaged autumn birds) is very good for a Black Redstart.

If you can cope with bad picture quality, I am happy to upload one for you.

I hope it doesnt come out as an offense, that I repeat my previous post in this thread. But I looked at this species more closely again this summer and autumn and I am still interested (as with every ID-topic).

Conclusion? Thanks Butty and Ken to date!

Edit: please note, that my comments are only about birds, that have completed their late summer/autumn moult and no juvenile or male-typed autumn birds. And this bird here is not in juvenile plumage.

 

[Grahame Walbridge]

Alexander/Ken,

Suggest you both read this https://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/species/phoenicurus-ochruros/sexing/

The OP cannot be reliably aged or sexed from these images so, it's a fem/1st-w. And regarding racial identity there is nothing to suggest it's anything other than gibraltariensis Ken.

Grahame

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,
here is slightly warmer than normal hued bird: (01.10.2021, Fienerode, NE-Germany)

https://flic.kr/p/2mCMtPs

all Hausrotschwanz 01.10.2021

and here is a slightly paler and very slightly warmer bird than normal: Hausrotschwanz Ziesar BB (03.09.2021, Ziesar, NE-Germany)

Another Black Redstart from yesterday:

https://flic.kr/p/2mCMerK

(20.10.2021, Schwetzinger Wiesen, SW-Germany)

And thank you Grahame! If presence/absence and intensity of the pale wing-panel is due to individual variation, rather than sex-related, than I am happy to learn. As said, I thought, fresh autumn birds with a striking pale, even whitish panel could well been sexed as males with confidence. But I was wrong.
Interesting thread, where I learned much. Thank you to all!