'RetroPorro' a Possibility says Leica (1 Viewer)

[jan van daalen]

Hi Hermann (post #16),

Some clarification about the Swarovski Traditional Porros:

Swarovski KG commenced commercial production of binoculars in 1948, at the new purpose built factory at Absam
(WWII military production of ‘cag’ marked 6x30’s had been at the original crystal factory at Wattens; and in 1948 Swarovski commercially marketed reworked cag units marked ‘DWS’)

• in April 1948, commercial 6x30 production commenced, with the 7x42 following later in the year; this initial production was marked ‘SWAROVSKI Absam-Tirol’
(and by observation: while the very first 6x30’s were uncoated, within the first 410 units DV coating was in use; and the earliest 7x42 that I’ve seen, 351 in its sequence was also coated)

• in 1949, Swarovski registered the company Swarovski Optik KG and the brand Habicht, with units from then on marked ‘HABICHT’ (with later variations)

• around 1965, the original eyepiece of the 6x30 and 7x42 with the small convex eye lens, was replaced with the larger eyepiece assembly with the large flat eye lens that’s still in use

• in 1984, the new airtight/ gas filled body with the stiffer focusing was introduced (identifiable by the valve cap screws on the bridge arms), and

• from late 2009, the current ‘paper white’ image along with the very high transmission levels were standard


The significance of 1948 is that it was when the Allies allowed Austria and Germany to recommence production of complex optical devices
- Swarovski had recommenced making glass spectacle blanks immediately after the end of the war in late 1945


As you've previously indicated a fondness for the Habichts, I thought that the above might be of interest
And as always the devil is in the detail - it took me a long while to work out and verify the early stuff


John

Hi John,

You mean these logo's?

Jan

 

[jan van daalen]

Outstanding - then Tilman is well familiar with earlier Leitz binoculars. Maybe we could meet for a round table at the IWA together with a Leica representative. I could ask Hans Seeger whether he would like to join (he could take some vintage binoculars from his collection).

Cheers,
Holger

I'll be there on Sunday.

Jan

 

[SeldomPerched]

Hi Hermann (post #16),

Some clarification about the Swarovski Traditional Porros:

Swarovski KG commenced commercial production of binoculars in 1948, at the new purpose built factory at Absam
(WWII military production of ‘cag’ marked 6x30’s had been at the original crystal factory at Wattens; and in 1948 Swarovski commercially marketed reworked cag units marked ‘DWS’)

• in April 1948, commercial 6x30 production commenced, with the 7x42 following later in the year; this initial production was marked ‘SWAROVSKI Absam-Tirol’
(and by observation: while the very first 6x30’s were uncoated, within the first 410 units DV coating was in use; and the earliest 7x42 that I’ve seen, 351 in its sequence was also coated)

• in 1949, Swarovski registered the company Swarovski Optik KG and the brand Habicht, with units from then on marked ‘HABICHT’ (with later variations)

• around 1965, the original eyepiece of the 6x30 and 7x42 with the small convex eye lens, was replaced with the larger eyepiece assembly with the large flat eye lens that’s still in use

• in 1984, the new airtight/ gas filled body with the stiffer focusing was introduced (identifiable by the valve cap screws on the bridge arms), and

• from late 2009, the current ‘paper white’ image along with the very high transmission levels were standard


The significance of 1948 is that it was when the Allies allowed Austria and Germany to recommence production of complex optical devices
- Swarovski had recommenced making glass spectacle blanks immediately after the end of the war in late 1945


As you've previously indicated a fondness for the Habichts, I thought that the above might be of interest
And as always the devil is in the detail - it took me a long while to work out and verify the early stuff


John

Hi John,

Can you tell me what 'cag' stands for? I imagine it's something to do with being made under licence in an occupied territory. Wikipedia isn't helping today!

I can read German well, but maybe 'cag' isn't a German abbreviation.

At a tangent, would I be right in thinking Austria was for a time cut into sectors for the three western powers plus the USSR? I have heard of wild Russian parties that ended with setting buildings on fire in the days immediately before the Soviets withdrew.

Many thanks,

Tom

 

[John A Roberts]

Nice one Jan! (post #21),

For those less knowledgeable about the Swarovski Habicht versions, I've attached a table showing what's chronologically in each of the 4 photographs


John


CORRECTION: in the table 'Habicht' in Photo 2 is of course in script (i.e. flowing writing) not just italic (with a sloped typeface)

 

[John A Roberts]

Hi Tom (post #23),

During WWII the Germans routinely used codes to identify different manufacturers (Germany had annexed Austria in 1938 - the Anschluss)
Presumedly the codes were intended to help deny the Allies knowledge of what manufacturers were producing, and therefore their priority as strategic bombing targets
For a list of the 3 letter codes used for optical manufacturers including Swarovski/ cag see here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewt...id=1f20420ef559610ec532782306f58839&start=105

After WWII the occupying forces divided Austria (and Vienna) into 4 sectors. The western portion including the Tirol where the Swarovski factory is, was located in the French sector


John

 

[mwhogue]

Thanks John (post #24) and Jan (post #21) for the helpful, interesting historical info and pictures. I have a Habicht (italic) 6x30 as depicted in Jan's 2nd photo with a relatively low (?) serial number 35039. It's in remarkably good condition and overall functions very well. Focusing wheel is smooth with just the right amount of tension. Not sure whether it has ever been serviced. The image is excellent considering age, etc., although there is a slight yellowish/light green cast which is to be expected given coating technology of the time I suppose.

Mike

 

[jan van daalen]

Nice one Jan! (post #21),

For those less knowledgeable about the Swarovski Habicht versions, I've attached a table showing what's chronologically in each of the 4 photographs


John

Thanks so much John:t:
I had from Swarovski the manufacturing dates but did nor realize I missed one version:-C

Jan

 

[garymh]

Can you tell me what 'cag' stands for?

During the later half of WW2 German manufacturers of military eqipment were assigned 3-letter codes to put on their products instead of their names.

This was intended to prevent the allies from recognising the major manufacturers and targetting their factories.

beh = Leitz

blc = Zeiss

cag = Swarovski

etc..............

Google something like "German wartime binocular codes" and you will find a full list.

Gary.

 

[jan van daalen]

Hi Tom (post #23),

During WWII the Germans routinely used codes to identify different manufacturers (Germany had annexed Austria in 1938 - the Anschluss)
Presumedly the codes were intended to help deny the Allies knowledge of what manufacturers were producing, and therefore their priority as strategic bombing targets
For a list of the 3 letter codes used for optical manufacturers including Swarovski/ cag see here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewt...id=1f20420ef559610ec532782306f58839&start=105

After WWII the occupying forces divided Austria (and Vienna) into 4 sectors. The western portion including the Tirol where the Swarovski factory is, was located was in the French sector


John

This is the front page of the German Nazi code book which has 777 pages.

Jan

 

[Canip]

Wow,
Jan / John / Gary,
You are surpassing yourselves - great info!!!
:t:

 

[John A Roberts]

Hi Mike (post #26),

Your 6x30 dates from around 1955. See the 3rd table which shows the main Traditional leatherette numbering sequences to 1989 at:
https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3777457&postcount=7

- - - -

Some will be aware there are variations to markings in addition to those show in Jan’s images

They mainly relate to the single coated (aka ’Falke’) production, which was offered from 1956 to 1968
They were, from most to least produced: 8x30N, 10x40N and, 8x30W

Other Falke markings include:
A) in the main sequence
- ‘FALKE’ from 1956 to 1962 - the predecessor to what’s shown in post #21

B) for the Swiss market
- ‘Habicht' (in script) with either ‘EV’ or ‘V’ (verses DV for dual coated) - 8x30N
- ’S-O/T’ (logo) and ‘HABICHT’ (on RHS, no logo) - 8x30N and 8x30W

C) for the West German market
- ‘Habicht' (in script) and ‘EV’ - 8x30N (has a different number sequence to the Swiss units)
- ’S-O/T’ (logo) and ‘Weitwinkel’ (on RHS, no logo) - 8x30W

D) for the UK market
- ‘HABICHT-TYROL’
- ‘SIMPLON’
- ‘IMPERIA’


John

 

[SeldomPerched]

During the later half of WW2 German manufacturers of military eqipment were assigned 3-letter codes to put on their products instead of their names.

This was intended to prevent the allies from recognising the major manufacturers and targetting their factories.

beh = Leitz

blc = Zeiss

cag = Swarovski

etc..............

Google something like "German wartime binocular codes" and you will find a full list.

Gary.

Thanks for the info, Gary. I had no idea!

Tom

 

[SeldomPerched]

Hi Tom (post #23),

During WWII the Germans routinely used codes to identify different manufacturers (Germany had annexed Austria in 1938 - the Anschluss)
Presumedly the codes were intended to help deny the Allies knowledge of what manufacturers were producing, and therefore their priority as strategic bombing targets
For a list of the 3 letter codes used for optical manufacturers including Swarovski/ cag see here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewt...id=1f20420ef559610ec532782306f58839&start=105

After WWII the occupying forces divided Austria (and Vienna) into 4 sectors. The western portion including the Tirol where the Swarovski factory is, was located in the French sector.

John

Thanks so much, John. This is the sort of micro-detail that helps inform my interest in the bigger picture of occupied post-war Europe. It adds a lot of colour to the subject!

Tom

 

[tenex]

After WWII the occupying forces divided Austria (and Vienna) into 4 sectors. The western portion including the Tirol where the Swarovski factory is, was located in the French sector

I had forgotten this, and still find myself wondering what made Austria the single case where the Russians were willing to withdraw their postwar occupation.

 

[John A Roberts]

Hi Tenex,

For a brief outline of events, see the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria
especially from the heading 'Cold War' on


John

 

[SeldomPerched]

Hi Tenex,

For a brief outline of events, see the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria
especially from the heading 'Cold War' on


John

Fascinating - the events in Austria towards and after the end of WW2 tend to be overlooked, at least as far as I can tell here in Britain.

Tom

 

[mak]

Me too.
AFAIK he is the one who took the initiative for "The Heritage Collection" and is the "architect" of the current Leica museum.

Jan

Tillman no longer works at Leica. He was at GSO, the last time I heard.

 

[mak]

During the later half of WW2 German manufacturers of military eqipment were assigned 3-letter codes to put on their products instead of their names.

This was intended to prevent the allies from recognising the major manufacturers and targetting their factories.

beh = Leitz

blc = Zeiss

cag = Swarovski

etc..............

Google something like "German wartime binocular codes" and you will find a full list.

Gary.

Gary was that after 1941 or 42?

 

[Patudo]

In a forthcoming interview with Stephan Albrecht of Leica, you will read that a retro-porro, in the same way as the Retrovid, would be considered by Leica if the demand is there. Herr Albrecht specifically says he would welcome feedback from Birdforum members about this.


Take note: this is not a cast-iron promise but it is an opportunity for Leica porro enthusiasts to nominate models and to say that they would definitely be interested in buying such a model.


Lee

Interesting... is there really that much interest at Leica in chasing the retro dollar/euro/renminbi, then?

Nominating models is all well and good, but the obvious question arises: there seems little point in recommending eg. the Camparit if the outcome is going to be modern optics in a retro-looking body, like the Retrovids. Also, it strikes me that none of Leica's porros were really distinctive in the way that the Trinovids were - the Binuxit and others, fine though they are, look much like any other generic porro (which may be a real disadvantage perceptionally).

Configuration wise - well, one notes that Leica hasn't, for whatever reason, revived the 8x32 model Trinovid, and that gap between the 7x35 and 8x40 could be neatly filled by an 8x30. Leitz's Binuxit was probably the most popular of their porro range - or at least, it seems, the most easily found on the used market - but some aspects of the original Binuxit, in particular lack of weatherproofing, inadequate edge performance (by today's standards), and probably the short eye relief, would not be acceptable today. But, of course, those issues would only be relevant if the intent was to build an exact or near-exact replica. The Binuxit body is fairly large for an 8x30, larger than the Zeiss West 8x30s, and might have the space to accommodate a longer eye relief design (maybe 16mm, matching the Retrovids) with a reasonable field of view (Zeiss's last 8x30B managed 130m), sharper to the edge. Making the binocular sealed, or at least splashproof, should be achievable. The result would be a porro that was both classic-looking and eminently usable.

More important than the practicalities of producing such a binocular, though, would be the fact that a putative Leica 8x30 porro would find itself in direct competition with highly rated 8x30 porros such as Swarovski's Habicht and the Nikon EII. The 10x40 configuration would find itself in competition not only with the Swarovski and Nikon offerings but also Leica's own 10x40 Retrovid, and the larger 10X and above configurations (except possibly 10x50) are very niche. I can't see Leica making a 7x50 again and feel there would be the most demand and interest in something small and handy like a 6x24 - although, of course, Leica didn't make porros in that configuration. I actually think a 6x24 Retrovid, especially if it could be tweaked for more eye relief, would offer something distinctly different to the other elite manufacturers, and might be well received. But (probably a good thing for all concerned) I'll never have the budget to develop and produce one...

 

[14Goudvink]

+1 for the Binuxit 8x30.

If the retroporro would have the same FOV and a bit more eye-relief, I would certainly be very interested!