Scottish Independence (3 Viewers)

[Andy Stoddart]

A somewhat neglected aspect of the Scottish independence debate has been the potential impact on bird recording/listing. There was a thought-provoking piece on the implications for conservation in the latest 'British Birds' but I have seen little discussion on what happens to recording/listing in the event of an independent Scotland.

Interesting questions include:

How do BOU/BBRC respond?
Do their jurisdictions change?
Does recording just adapt to changing political boundaries?
What do we now mean by the 'British List'?
Given the increasing disjunction between any new 'UK' and any recognisable geographical entity, how might listers respond?

I'm sure there are many more questions too.

I don't have any answers or suggestions to any of the above but just thought it might be fun to play around with some ideas.

As this topic will be of most interest to listers/rare bird enthusiasts, I'm posting it on this thread.

 

[timsg80]

I would have thought that there should be little difference as Scotland would be leaving the United Kingdom, but would remain as part of Great Britain (which is just the island that we're on).

 

[Steve Arlow]

British List / British Isles, British Isles - England, Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland I think though I don't get that one) should really make no difference from a geography standpoint but national lists are or least tend to be based on political boundaries.

If the British List actually then just covers England, Wales and NI then a lot of birds north of the border stand to be lost as British Birds, ie Caper, Ptarmigan, Crested Tit, Cape May Warbler (for everyone), Rubythroat (for many), Veery (for most), Thick-billed Warbler (for everyone) etc. I would stand to lose only about 12 species...

Personally I think it should be British Isles = British List

 

[string boozel]

I believe a lot of birders count birds seen in the whole of the British Isles which include the Republic of Ireland and would imagine they would take the same approach with an independent Scotland.

James.

 

[Phil Andrews]

I believe a lot of birders count birds seen in the whole of the British Isles which include the Republic of Ireland and would imagine they would take the same approach with an independent Scotland.

James.

I suspect that a Yes vote could well renew interest in British Isles (Britain & Ireland) list.

 

[Mike Crawley]

Oddly, I believe lots of birders (that I know) definitely do not count Eire

 

[cheshirebirder]

How would it affect the RSPB. Scotland would become a "foreign" country in the same way as the Irish Republic so presumably all Scottish reserves would transfer to some other Scottish body ? At present I guess that the number of reserves the RSPB has in Scotland is disproportionate to the population. Can't see why members from the other countries would want their funds supporting reserves in another country when there's plenty that needs supporting at home.

 

[Birdspotter]

A somewhat neglected aspect of the Scottish independence debate has been the potential impact on bird recording/listing. There was a thought-provoking piece on the implications for conservation in the latest 'British Birds' but I have seen little discussion on what happens to recording/listing in the event of an independent Scotland.

Interesting questions include:

How do BOU/BBRC respond?
Do their jurisdictions change?
Does recording just adapt to changing political boundaries?
What do we now mean by the 'British List'?
Given the increasing disjunction between any new 'UK' and any recognisable geographical entity, how might listers respond?

I'm sure there are many more questions too.

I don't have any answers or suggestions to any of the above but just thought it might be fun to play around with some ideas.

As this topic will be of most interest to listers/rare bird enthusiasts, I'm posting it on this thread.

As a Scot I wouldn't be too happy at sending in my sightings of rare birds to BBRC after independence (if it happens), but would perhaps send them onto the Scottish Ornithologist's Club's body SBRC instead. But I would be happy to go with the flow should SOC decide to stick with BBRC.
I posed this question on the Facebook page "Scottish Birding" recently where there was a very good discusion on this subject.

As for my list I have a few but a British one ain't in any of them anymore, and not too interested in what BOU or BBRC decide to do either.

Happy Birding

 

[borolad]

I would have thought that there should be little difference as Scotland would be leaving the United Kingdom, but would remain as part of Great Britain (which is just the island that we're on).

Exactly.....easy to leave political entity (UK) but impossible to leave Britain as it refers to the whole island and is therefore a geographical entity

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

Pretty much along the lines of my tweet a week ago:

https://twitter.com/birdingprof/status/507202510504099841

One of the reasons I keep an English list (not that I have ever kept a British & Irish list) was prompted by the split of the island of Ireland from the BOU. If the Scots go (which I doubt) then surely they would take their list with them. Presumably the Welsh are next

It's a good job I have a few different county lists, as well as patch and house lists, once everything is devolved I'll still have something left to count, though it won't take long.

 

[lewis20126]

There are many English birders / twitchers who maintain a "British List", as this to them to be the logical national political unit and yet as this referendum demonstrates such political units are subject to the whims of voters. If those English birders who maintain a British List (but exclude both parts of Ireland) decide to retain ticks they have had in a Foreign Country, this would be entertaining given the vitriol poured on B&I&IOM listers by some! If they decide to exclude Scotland and those Scottish lifers. then presumably those Shetland trips will be a thing of the past?

Of course if you have a geographic B&I&IOM list, you can be relaxed about the outcome of the referendum, other than concerns about passport control on the M6.

Say "Aye" to Scotland's self determination!

cheers, alan

 

[lewis20126]

Exactly.....easy to leave political entity (UK) but impossible to leave Britain as it refers to the whole island and is therefore a geographical entity

hmmm what about the Shetlands, Orkney and the Western Isles?

cheers, a

 

[Birdspotter]

Exactly.....easy to leave political entity (UK) but impossible to leave Britain as it refers to the whole island and is therefore a geographical entity

So are you saying BBRC and BOU still look upon the Irish Republic as British then?
Okay maybe England and Scotland has land borders whilst the Republic only shares a border with Northern Ireland, but it is set within the geography of the British Isles!?

 

[timsg80]

So are you saying BBRC and BOU still look upon the Irish Republic as British then?
Okay maybe England and Scotland has land borders whilst the Republic only shares a border with Northern Ireland, but it is set within the geography of the British Isles!?

Ireland (both Northern and the Republic) is not part of Britain, but like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but not Britain. Northern Ireland is also part of Ireland, but not part of the country which is the Republic of Ireland. An independent Scotland would, in the same sort of way, still be part of Britain and would surely be regarded as such by the BBRC and BOU.

 

[lewis20126]

Exactly.....easy to leave political entity (UK) but impossible to leave Britain as it refers to the whole island and is therefore a geographical entity

Wiki: "Great Britain,[note 1] also known as Britain is an island in the North Atlantic off the north-west coast of continental Europe. The island has an area of 229,848 km2 (88,745 sq mi), and is the largest island of the British Isles, the largest island in Europe and the ninth-largest in the world.[5][6] With a population of about 61 million people in 2011, it is the third-most populous island in the world, after Java (Indonesia) and Honshū (Japan).[7][8] It is surrounded by over 1,000 smaller islands.[9] The island of Ireland lies to its west.

..so you can take off anything from the Scillies, IOW, Shetland, Orkney and the Hebs.

cheers, alan

 

[Andy1979]

I guess it will be down to which authority you subscribe to (BOU, UK400) and if neither, then down to personal choice. The B in BOU is British, meaning the political entity which is GB (ie England, Scotland and Wales - not NI and not IOM). If Scotland go, then the BOU will surely only be able to cover England and Wales?

 

[lewis20126]

If BBRC becomes a body with responsibility for assessing England and Wales only, then we might get some welcome input on English Parrot Crossbill records!

cheers, alan

 

[timsg80]

Wiki: "Great Britain,[note 1] also known as Britain is an island in the North Atlantic off the north-west coast of continental Europe. The island has an area of 229,848 km2 (88,745 sq mi), and is the largest island of the British Isles, the largest island in Europe and the ninth-largest in the world.[5][6] With a population of about 61 million people in 2011, it is the third-most populous island in the world, after Java (Indonesia) and Honshū (Japan).[7][8] It is surrounded by over 1,000 smaller islands.[9] The island of Ireland lies to its west.

..so you can take off anything from the Scillies, IOW, Shetland, Orkney and the Hebs.

cheers, alan

To quote wikipedia:

Great Britain refers to the whole of England, Scotland and Wales in combination, but not Northern Ireland; it includes islands such as the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Isles of Scilly, the Hebrides and the island groups of Orkney and Shetland.

 

[lewis20126]

Those English birders who have a political British list will certainly have to go through some odd contortions to retain their Scottish Birds. They will need "a list of the Birds of Britain and its surrounding islands, excluding the island of Ireland and the IOM". Or they could just have a "British Isles*" List.

*with apologies to any Irish sensitivities in relation to this term

cheers,a

 

[ClarkWGriswold]

Might make it easier to get holidays to Scotland past the OH - "fancy going abroad this year?" Just sounds better.o

Rich