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Songbird Survival (1 Viewer)

rasbull

Member
I read an article in the Daily Mail today stating how an ex member of the RSPB was no longer a member due to the effect BOP were having songbirds. I keep racing pigeons and have experienced several attacks from hawks etc. In addition my own garden over the last 10 years has seen a dramatic decline in songbirds which used to frequent my garden. I believe the hawk population is having a disasterous effect on the songbirds. I am a bird lover, and like all birds, including BOP. But natures balance is being disrupted by the protection they currently receive. The birds of Prey are now in towns and cities and surely this is because they are fighting for room in the country. I hear from other fanciers who have attacks nearly everytime they let their birds out. I used to have Blue tits nesting in my garden every year, but the days have past and now I dont even see a Blue tit let alone have one nesting. The same applies to the Chaffinch and Starling and even the sparrow has dwindled in numbers in the last 10 years. I have set up a petition which I will be presenting to newspapers/MP's/RSPB to highlight the damage these BOP are doing to the songbird population in this country. If any of you have witnessed this decline yourself, or have concerns regarding the BOP population levels and the damage there uncontrolled numbers are having on the song bird population please sign the petition.

Thank you for your time

Richard Shepherd
 
Sorry but it wasn't an article it was a letter to the editor, the writer was an obvious plonker so no heed should be taken of them. I have no connection to the RSPB and in fact am not a lover of them but I know a damn sight more about ecology than the writer of that letter.
I'm sorry but if your petition is in response to that letter then you show a similar lack of knowledge of ecology.
 
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We need to think about this one, I have removed the links to the petition for now, but I have a feeling this thread will get messy and ultimately binned.
 
Hi Adam, I am not after sympathy. I am asking if genuine bird lovers believe the balance should be given back to nature rather than artificially created 'kings' of the sky. I am sure a lot of people have also witnessed declines in the songbird population. Surely its not just in my garden??
 
If any of you have witnessed this decline yourself, or have concerns regarding the BOP population levels and the damage there uncontrolled numbers are having on the song bird population please sign the petition.

Thank you for your time

Richard Shepherd

You obviously haven't read the recent results of the research (paid for by Songbird Survival) which demonstrated that birds of prey are highly unlikely to be responsible for songbird declines:

http://www.bto.org/news/news2010/marapr/Are_predators_to_blame_for_songbird_declines.html
 
There is a recent scientific study on this issue that concludes that "Analyses of large-scale and extensive national monitoring data provides little underlying evidence for large-scale impacts of widespread avian predators and grey squirrels on avian prey populations, although we cannot exclude the possibility that a small number of negative associations between particular predator and prey species reflect causal relationships or that predators affect prey species at smaller spatial scales."

see: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123314383/abstract

Edit: Cross post with Capercaillie71
 
Hi Adam, I am not after sympathy. I am asking if genuine bird lovers believe the balance should be given back to nature rather than artificially created 'kings' of the sky. I am sure a lot of people have also witnessed declines in the songbird population. Surely its not just in my garden??

All i meant was i've had more than my share of stick on here before for having opinions different to many people on here so i knew this was a non starter for you regaurdless of wether you were right or wrong.
 
I used to have Blue tits nesting in my garden every year, but the days have past and now I dont even see a Blue tit let alone have one nesting. The same applies to the Chaffinch and Starling and even the sparrow has dwindled in numbers in the last 10 years.

I can't comment on the situation in your garden, but in the UK as a whole Chaffinch and Blue Tit populations have both significantly increased over the past 10-15 years. The birds of prey clearly aren't doing a very good job at reducing their numbers!
 
If some people on here don't believe that the Bird of Prey population is not to blame for declines, which there must be due to the songbird survival group being set up as stated in a few responses can I ask what people do actually believe is causing the decline?
 
There has been some awful journalism over the past week that has painted the Sparrowhawk as Public Enemy Number One. Anyone who has seen the joint BTO/St Andrews University paper cannot help but conclude that our commonest raptors are having little impact on the majority passerines.

I wrote the following article in the Sunday Express. I hope it puts things in perpsective.
I was informed that the authors of the paper said this piece reached an accurate conclusion.


JAMES Lovelock has the wonderful demeanour of the elderly gent in the Werther's Original adverts and a brain as nimble and incisive as Wayne Rooney's feet.
His views on climate change and the future of our living - some may say dying - planet may seem doom-laden, but his underlying philosophy, honed during his 90 years, is deserving of religious devotion.

At the heart of Professor Lovelock's beliefs is the Gaia Theory: Earth is effectively a living, breathing organism and the planet's thermostat is controlled by the plants and creatures that live on it.

Last week, I was lucky to hear the professor delivering a lecture at London's Science Museum, explaining how the chemical balance of our small rock was kept in check by the biological processes of billions of living things. In short, without life there would be no life.

I left thinking about a newly published scientific work on the impact predators are having on songbirds. One shock headline summed up it up: "Sparrowhawk boom to blame for the vanishing songbirds" and another, "Named - the guilty hawk".

Reading a release from the British Trust for Ornithology, based on the paper published in the Journal Of Applied Ecology, I had a completely different take.
The research was certainly thorough. Detailed observations from more than 200 sites carried out between 1967 and 2000 for the Common Bird Census were matched with recent findings from more than 2,000 volunteers who have been carrying out the Breeding Bird Survey.

Far from painting the sparrowhawk and our other well-known raptors, buzzard and kestrel, as public enemies, the most significant finding was out of 29 potential prey species - which includes all of our best-known garden and farmland species. In all but seven cases there was no significant link between the increase in predator numbers and the decline in prey.

Out of seven species where negative impacts were identified, three well-known birds - tree sparrow, bullfinch and reed bunting - appear, and I use that word advisedly, to be suffering the worst, to the point that the scientists say there should be further investigations.

I have seen sparrowhawks take countless collared doves, starlings, blackbirds and blue tits, but I have never witnessed bullfinch, tree sparrow or reed bunting kills. I believe these species have suffered declines over the past 40 years because of habitat loss. All like the tangled hedgerows that have been regularly grubbed up to make space for housing and farming.

This brings me to the fact that of the 22 species studied, there is "no statistically significant link between the increase of predator numbers and the decline of prey numbers".
My view is that far from having a negative effect, the balance between predators and prey is as nature intended - in balance.
They need each other to ensure nature's most important rule is obeyed: survival of the fittest.
 
If some people on here don't believe that the Bird of Prey population is not to blame for declines, which there must be due to the songbird survival group being set up as stated in a few responses can I ask what people do actually believe is causing the decline?

Habitat quality.

But it is only a limited number of songbirds (particularly farmland specialists) that have declined. Many others have increased in recent years

There is evidence that predators can affect numbers of some ground-nesting birds (particularly waders and gamebirds) but for songbirds, the evidence is just not there.
 
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I keep racing pigeons and have experienced several attacks from hawks etc.

Well, if you will release these birds "into the wild" it's hardly surprising if an opportunist raptor sees them as a fast-food takeaway, is it?;)

IF there is any decline in garden "songbird" populations this is far more likely to be the direct result of too many cats.:C Then there are the too-tidy gardens full of decking and gravel and slug pellets, creeping sub-urbanisation with more and more houses with pocket-handkerchief patio gardens, cats, new estates with no mature trees or hedges, more cats...
 
It's like those pesky Whales and Dolphins eating all the fish in the sea. Something should be done about it <goes and sets up a petition ...> ;)

Seriously, on a garden level, cats, windows and modern building methods (I think that is a major factor in the House Sparrow situation) are all quite major factors in reducing bird numbers annually. But don't forget that we also need predators and mortality of songbirds - otherwise we'd be knee-deep in them after a few years. They have large clutch sizes and multi-brood (and can re-lay if the clutch is lost) precisely because they have to contend with predators, and always have done so.

(Changing agricultural practises, as mentioned, is a real biggie for much of our declining wildlife (red data listed birds included). That is something it would be worth trying to do something about. )
 
It's like those pesky Whales and Dolphins eating all the fish in the sea. Something should be done about it <goes and sets up a petition ...> ;)

Lol. Some fair points I feel. Does anyone on here actually agree with the articles and the letter that have been published in the press recently?
 
If some people on here don't believe that the Bird of Prey population is not to blame for declines, which there must be due to the songbird survival group being set up

I for one don't believe that birds of prey have anything to do with any "declines" in small passerine populations: habitat, farming methods, rampant housing estate building, general "tidiness" in the countryside etc. may all have some effect.

However, this is a free(ish) country and anyone can set up any group in support of any subject they believe to be in need of their attention, however flimsy the evidence may be for those beliefs.

That reminds me... I think I forgot to renew my membership to the Flat-earth Society...:flyaway:
 
Aswell as stated there's climate change. For example studies have shown Crane fly lava dies in the warmer late summer months meaning less food the following spring for birds such as Curlews and Plovers.
Also migrating birds are finding it harder in their wintering grounds due to climate change and habitat loss. The sahara is getting bigger and harder for birds to cross on migration.
 
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However, this is a free(ish) country and anyone can set up any group in support of any subject they believe to be in need of their attention, however flimsy the evidence may be for those beliefs.

Does that mean my link can reattached to this thread and allow people to decide for themselves if they feel the need to sign the petition? If people do not agree with it, they dont have to sign it! I believe in free speech and democracy and this would be allowing people to decide for themselves I feel. Just an idea???
 
If some people on here don't believe that the Bird of Prey population is not to blame for declines, which there must be due to the songbird survival group being set up as stated in a few responses can I ask what people do actually believe is causing the decline?


I did this rather extensively about 4 years ago. If you have the stamina, look through this

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=26754


and this post if you can't be bothered will all the evidence

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=259229&postcount=105
 
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Don't think cats can be blamed for any declines, yes they a kill lots of birds, but we have lived cats for a long time and the songbirds that are declining are not generally garden birds, they are farmland birds.
Most garden birds are on the increase apart from House Sparrow which I think is mainly due to changes in building materials, using plastic instead of wood.
 
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