Thick-billed Green Pigeon, Java (4 Viewers)

[Andy Adcock]

I can't match the range of any of the given races of Treron curvirostra on the IOC, to include Java, anyone help?

On Scythebill, there is a great little button which neatly, summarises the range of each race, none mention Java?

 

[Jacana]

Are you sure it wasn't Grey-cheeked (griseicauda) that you saw? I think it has been lumped with Thick-billed in the past.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Are you sure it wasn't Grey-cheeked (griseicauda) that you saw? I think it has been lumped with Thick-billed in the past.

I did, specifically check that Will but in the now, very old book on the birds of Borneo, Sumatra and Java, by MacKinnon and Phillipps, Thick-billed is confirmed as present in albeit, a small area of Java and this may well be an ID error on my part but there's no mention of Grey-cheeked being split from Thick-billed or vice versa?

Looks like I should probably discard this sighting, fortunately, I have seen Thick-billed elsewhere.

 

[Jacana]

There's no mention of them on Java on BirdsoftheWorld (not sure if you have access). The closest would be on Deli Island and in southern Sumatra. I suspect that if they are on mainland Java, the subspecies will be whatever is on Deli/southern Sumatra.

 

[Andy Adcock]

There's no mention of them on Java on BirdsoftheWorld (not sure if you have access). The closest would be on Deli Island and in southern Sumatra. I suspect that if they are on mainland Java, the subspecies will be whatever is on Deli/southern Sumatra.

Deli and Tinjil is what the book states but I hadn't read that until today.

 

[njlarsen]

Not shown as present on Java in the Eaton et al book.
Niels

 

[awiner]

Not shown as present on Java in the Eaton et al book.
Niels

But Deli/Tinjil Islands are - administratively speaking - part of Java, right?

 

[James Eaton]

But Deli/Tinjil Islands are - administratively speaking - part of Java, right?

This will be because in the field guide, Thick-billed Green Pigeon has been split, so the birds on Deli and Tinjil are 'Barusan Green Pigeon', a taxon confined to the outer islands surrounding south and west Sumatra.

Andy - Thick-billed Green Pigeon has no confirmed records from mainland Java.

James

 

[Andy Adcock]

This will be because in the field guide, Thick-billed Green Pigeon has been split, so the birds on Deli and Tinjil are 'Barusan Green Pigeon', a taxon confined to the outer islands surrounding south and west Sumatra.

Andy - Thick-billed Green Pigeon has no confirmed records from mainland Java.

James

Thanks James but IOC hasn't split them yet.

What probably happened is that I made an over confident, wrong, field ID, being unaware of the status of the bird in Java. I will have quickly skimmed the book which shows the various islands as either S .B or J, the pigeon has SBJ next to it which supported my ID at the time and I clearly didn't read the full text so I'm deleting that record.

Any suggestions for what the birds were then?

 

[Andy Adcock]

But Deli/Tinjil Islands are - administratively speaking - part of Java, right?

Adam, are you in control of the range maps on Scythebill?

 

[James Eaton]

Thanks James but IOC hasn't split them yet.

What probably happened is that I made an over confident, wrong, field ID, being unaware of the status of the bird in Java. I will have quickly skimmed the book which shows the various islands as either S .B or J, the pigeon has SBJ next to it which supported my ID at the time and I clearly didn't read the full text so I'm deleting that record.

Any suggestions for what the birds were then?

Ah right, no idea about IOC, one of the bonuses of not keeping a list.

It would have been Grey-cheeked, as Will mentioned, given how similar they are. Very few other Treron options on Java, as you would be familiar with Pink-necked.

James

 

[Andy Adcock]

Ah right, no idea about IOC, one of the bonuses of not keeping a list.

It would have been Grey-cheeked, as Will mentioned, given how similar they are. Very few other Treron options on Java, as you would be familiar with Pink-necked.

James

On Scythebill, the programme I use, if there is a split involved, it usually mentions it but none is mentioned under either T-b or G-c although the given range is fairly emphatic.

 

[James Eaton]

On Scythebill, the programme I use, if there is a split involved, it usually mentions it but none is mentioned under either T-b or G-c although the given range is fairly emphatic.

As I say, it is split in the Indonesian Archipelago field guide - whether this is followed by any of the lists, I've no idea, or if Scythebill also includes what are in field guides - I wouldn't know. I just know what has been published in the field guide or what has appeared in peer-reviewed manuscripts.

 

[Andy Adcock]

As I say, it is split in the Indonesian Archipelago field guide - whether this is followed by any of the lists, I've no idea, or if Scythebill also includes what are in field guides - I wouldn't know. I just know what has been published in the field guide or what has appeared in peer-reviewed manuscripts.

'Barusan'Treron (curvirostra) hypothapsinus, IOC have that race on Enganno which isn't under Java, no mention of Deli and Tinjil?

 

[awiner]

As I say, it is split in the Indonesian Archipelago field guide - whether this is followed by any of the lists, I've no idea, or if Scythebill also includes what are in field guides - I wouldn't know. I just know what has been published in the field guide or what has appeared in peer-reviewed manuscripts.

I've just got eBird and IOC taxonomies in Scythebill. eBird treats Barusan as a group, with range "islands off of western Sumatra (Mentawi Islands and Enggano Island; birds on Nias Island perhaps also this taxon)", IOC as two or three subspecies (T.c.smicrus, T.c.hypothapsinus, and maybe T.c.pegus).

FWIW none of those ranges mention anything about Deli and Tinjil, but I wouldn't know if that's an oversight or intentional.

 

[James Eaton]

'Barusan'Treron (curvirostra) hypothapsinus, IOC have that race on Enganno which isn't under Java, no mention of Deli and Tinjil?

After spending considerable time looking into whether hypothapsinus should be given full species status a few years back, we poured through literature and personal sightings to confirm the taxon has been recorded on both Deli and Tinjil, along with Panaitan. Likewise, off islands off Sumatra include Babi, Mentawai island group and Enggano.
I wouldn't expect a global checklist to have the resources to be able to scour the range of every taxon, especially if it's to include every small island in an archipelago (and likewise, even those that devote their time to a small region will make errors).