Tundra and(?) Trumpeter Swans? (Northern Virginia) (1 Viewer)

[howiewu]

Hi,

I was at Mason Neck NWR today. At this time of the year there are usually a lot of wintering Tundra Swans. This year's flock seems to be rather small ... but anyway, in this picture, the smaller swan definitely is a Tundra, but the larger one seems to have a larger bill which is missing the yellow spot .. could it be a Trumpeter?

I know this may be wishful thinking .. not confident about this at all.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance,
Howard

 

[foresttwitcher]

Yes, I think you have one of each there.

 

[DarkFireFalcon]

I'm not so sure about the Trumpeter. The bill does look rather large, but I'm not sure if the border between the feathers and the top of the bill is pointed enough, and there seems to be a marked curve in the gape, both points that favor Tundra. Do you have any other pictures. Many Tundra swans do not have any yellow on the bill, so that's not exactly a great ID feature.

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I'm not so sure about the Trumpeter. The bill does look rather large, but I'm not sure if the border between the feathers and the top of the bill is pointed enough, and there seems to be a marked curve in the gape, both points that favor Tundra. Do you have any other pictures. Many Tundra swans do not have any yellow on the bill, so that's not exactly a great ID feature.

The rear bird actually seems to show a tiny amount of yellow (or at least pale) on the lores, which again points to Tundra.

 

[foresttwitcher]

I noticed the small pale patch on the lores but thought it may have been a photographic issue rather than a yellow spot; but in any case thought the shapes of the boundary between feathers & skin above the bill were different between the two birds - more horizontal across the forehead on the Tundra in the foreground & more curved down towards the bill on the larger rear bird.

 

[Keith Dickinson]

I've been lurking here and having thumbed through Wildfowl by Madge and Burns, I'd go for tundra for both birds on bill shape 'concave' rather than straight and also the 'forehead' curved rather than pointed. The pale trace on the bill of the further bird is not such a good sign as Madge and Burn record that occasionally Trumpeter have p[ale spots in this location.

 

[foresttwitcher]

OK - I had thought the bill appeared concave on both so I'll admit defeat based on lack of experience.

 

[DarkFireFalcon]

Do you happen to have any other pictures?

 

[howiewu]

Thanks for the discussion; I do not have any other picture of this particular bird; in any case I thought they were all Tundras to begin with and did not pay too much attention. But the discussion was helpful!

 

[DarkFireFalcon]

I'm curious, was it really as much larger in real life as it appears in this photo? Because Trumpeters are quite large compared to Tundras, and the angle of the feathering above the bill is pretty suggestive, but it's not quite as sharp as I thought it should be. I'd like to hear from people who've had more experience with this ID problem.

 

[DarkFireFalcon]

I want to bump this thread up again. Can anyone with more experience than me comment about the larger swan? I originally argued against Trumpeter, but now I'm thinking I may have been too hasty.

 

[stevethehydra]

This discussion of possible hybrids between Tundra and Trumpeter Swans may be relevant: http://www.flickr.com/groups/hybridbirds/discuss/72157625941234626/

(also, Trumpeter Swans "can have a dash of pallid yellow in lores"... although this bird's bill looks more Tundra-like than Trumpeter-like in shape to me...)

 

[Sandhill Crane Lover]

I personally think the swan with its neck extended is a Trumpeter Swan, as the bill looks longer, larger and more rounded, and the V-shaped angle of the feathers on the bill looks much different to me than the rounded shape of the other swan's. I also noticed the brownish-stained head, which I almost always see on a Trumpeter Swan (it seems to contrast with the almost pure-white head of the other swan). The body of the swan also seems massive compared to the other swan.

 

[Jim M.]

[EDIT: Posting at the same time as Sandhill Crane lover].

Top bird looks good for Trumpeter Swan. Would be nice to have more photos from other angles, but you can clearly see how the black lores appear narrow and "pinched" just in front of the eye in the lower bird, while they are the same width as the eye in the upper bird. The bill also appears more curved at the gape in the lower bird than the upper, and the bill is longer, and the forehead more pointed in the upper bird. The upper bird also appears larger, though it's hard to be sure on this from a single photo.

Jim

 

[Larry Lade]

Another "key" in differentiating the two swan species is how the eye of the Tundra seems to be "set off" from the black bill and the eye of the Trumpeter seems to be more "enclosed" by the black bill.

I vote for Trumpeter Swan in back, Tundra Swan in the front.

 

[DarkFireFalcon]

Thanks everyone. I was initially wondering about the curve of the top of the bill, and I thought the V shape at the top of the bill was usually a bit more extreme, but the most I looked into it, the more I was leaning Trumpeter, which would be a pretty unusual bird for the area. I know there is always the question of provenance of Trumpeters in the east, because of supposed previous releases by waterfowl enthusiasts before the re-introduction up in the Great Lakes.

 

[foresttwitcher]

It seems I should have had a bit more faith in my original impression!

 

[howiewu]

Hi, guys --

Thanks for the discussions (and Jim, I just got your PM).

Unfortunately, this is the only picture I have of this swan. I went back and adjusted the level/curve of this picture; it seems like it does have a "bump" on the base of its bill. As much I want it to be a Trumpeter (it would be my first!), I would say it's probably still a Tundra.

Also, at the time I did not notice anything too unusual about this one; in the picture, though, it does seem a bit larger than other birds.

Thanks,
Howard

 

[howiewu]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but just want to add a note that I finally "got" the Trumpeter Swan today at Patuxent Research Refuge in Maryland.

Once I "got" it, I could then compare with my Tundra Swan pictures, and I am more convinced that the original picture on this thread was of 2 Tundra Swans. Compared with Tundra Swans, this Trumpeter Swan's bill looks much larger and more straight, although I did not find the "pointed border" very obvious on this particular bird.