UK - Help Please - Have you seen one of these ? (1 Viewer)

[Steven Astley]

So, I’m personally not interested in the “Computers and The Internet” section, nor the “Alabama” sub-forum in the USA area, or the “Pentax Binocular” threads, but there are there if I ever want them, and I’m sure other people must use them all the time.


The second theme is different, and has run through many posts, and is probably the more ‘emotive’ on. Many “experienced” birders in the UK feel at the moment that birding in the UK is being “dumbed down”, that fieldcraft isn’t what it just to be, that people new to the hobby don’t want to learn but want to run before they can walk, that no one does an apprenticeship anymore and that the digital camera has become not an asset to birding but a liability that makes people lazy and prevents them really looking at birds anymore. Before anyone shoots the messanger, I'm just saying what I keep hearing.

Alarm bells always ring when I hear the comment "seen by very experienced birders" :-O
Thanks to the digital age birding is better than ever, the internet - thousands of pictures, debates, rare bird information, photo verification for posterity. Our knowledge is better than ever.
Maybe Bobtug the old timers who have this opinion are scarred of being found out .

 

[Xenospiza]

Subforums are so annoying... I steer clear from the digiscoping forum if only for this reason!

 

[Steven Astley]

Subforums are so annoying... I steer clear from the digiscoping forum if only for this reason!

Just think there could be another Long-billed Murrelet lurking in one of the subforums

 

[gerdwichers8]

This all is a mere reflection of what is wrong in our schoolsystems. Raising birders is nothing much else but raising kids.
Some of them want to be raised being a birder first, after that, the rainforest needs to be saved.
Others first use the schoolsystem right, screw the rainforest as a carpetfloor and decide to become birders because they need a hobby.
Again other really want to know what this kind of talk is about, but they are hindered because they just had too strong a beer after a long day of work and step into the understanding again of the photographer who might suffer the same.

Let's start identifying HUMANS and realise that there are too many breds just to generalise in one book thats founded on human wisdom or craft or whatsoever the whole lot of them.

Someone else has to judge my writing because I had too heavy a beer after working in a dull factory because I did not finish my study Biology at University.

 

[deborah4]

I reckon there is a world of difference between writing notes on a bird (which you could have used to identify the bird later had you had the relevant literature etc.) and just pointing a camera at it and asking someone else what it is.

... or a car - check the signature - I'm far too hard on myself when it comes to rules :-O


btw: can anyone help with a wren type bird, seen in the garden today, very much like a wren but definitely didn't have a cocked tail, and went pipitty, warblery warblery trilly trrrrr rather than 'zitrivi-si svi-svi-svi-svi-svi zivusu zu-zu-zu-zu si-zirrrrrrr .... blah blah blah' can't find it in my guide books at all and I'VE GOT LOTS OF THEM :stuck:

 

[lockbreeze926]

I had too heavy a beer

Brilliant.

My second favourite quote of the day, after the fellow who "has spent most of the last 20 years sitting in trees".

Have another one on me, Gerd, sounds like you've earned it.

 

[lockbreeze926]

... or a car
btw: can anyone help with a wren type bird, seen in the garden today, very much like a wren but definitely didn't have a cocked tail, and went pipitty, warblery warblery trilly trrrrr rather than 'zitrivi-si svi-svi-svi-svi-svi zivusu zu-zu-zu-zu si-zirrrrrrr .... blah blah blah' can't find it in my guide books at all and I'VE GOT LOTS OF THEM :stuck:

Tricky. Probably a hybrid.

 

[cavan wood]

This all is a mere reflection of what is wrong in our schoolsystems. Raising birders is nothing much else but raising kids.
Some of them want to be raised being a birder first, after that, the rainforest needs to be saved.
Others first use the schoolsystem right, screw the rainforest as a carpetfloor and decide to become birders because they need a hobby.
Again other really want to know what this kind of talk is about, but they are hindered because they just had too strong a beer after a long day of work and step into the understanding again of the photographer who might suffer the same.

Let's start identifying HUMANS and realise that there are too many breds just to generalise in one book thats founded on human wisdom or craft or whatsoever the whole lot of them.

Someone else has to judge my writing because I had too heavy a beer after working in a dull factory because I did not finish my study Biology at University.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, but I find it ironic that after spending the day/week/year/life trying to teach a bunch of disinterested teenagers all they need to know to succeed in life so they can properly destroy the rainforest, I came home and had a couple of heavy beers as well. B

Cheers,
Scott

p.s. As a parent, I have been a total failure when it comes to encouraging my kids to take an interest in the outdoors. I just hope that if I keep throwing rocks over the wall, at least one or two will find a target on the other side, and that someday they'll figure out why I kept disappearing into the woods all those years.

 

[gerdwichers8]

Hi Scott

Somehow I noticed that people do get some interest in the outdoors.
Sadly it is often not direct.
Years ago, I noticed some remarkable movement in Holland that many housewifes took a lot of interest in 4 wheel driven all terrrain vehicles. Seeing such, one might have been delighted that it had to be THE signal that this bred, finally had taken interest in wildlife.
Sadly it meant the seccond car in many households so ..
the dust-and dirttracks what they were meant for, were degraded into asphaltroads
Nowadays, when I step on my recumbentbike in the early mornings and end up getting stuck with its rockhard 20"tires in the dirt, I find it hard not to like the announcement that our minister wants this last dirttrack to be paved for the elderly persons who need to cycle in nature the last years of their life.

 

[sideshow bob]

Hi Scott

Somehow I noticed that people do get some interest in the outdoors.
Sadly it is often not direct.
Years ago, I noticed some remarkable movement in Holland that many housewifes took a lot of interest in 4 wheel driven all terrrain vehicles. Seeing such, one might have been delighted that it had to be THE signal that this bred, finally had taken interest in wildlife.
Sadly it meant the seccond car in many households so ..
the dust-and dirttracks what they were meant for, were degraded into asphaltroads
Nowadays, when I step on my recumbentbike in the early mornings and end up getting stuck with its rockhard 20"tires in the dirt, I find it hard not to like the announcement that our minister wants this last dirttrack to be paved for the elderly persons who need to cycle in nature the last years of their life.

OK, so this thread seems to have drifted away from it's original objective and debate. Time for a sub-forum on the philosophical aspects of birding and it's relation to our perceptions of environmental ideals? |=)|

 

[Richard G]

I can appreciate the humour with which the OP was made.

However, I am not an expert with IDs, and I have a lot of fieldguides that are either kept on the bookshelf or in the car. Occassionally I would need help from more experienced birders for an ID of what to them could be an easy & common bird.

I've already made the mistake of asking for help with what turned out to be a Kestrel in the end. To avoid any further bother in the future & to stop me appearing a timewaster I'll just blunder along in ignorance, and won't bother posting questions in this particular part of BF.

 

[bitterntwisted]

To avoid any further bother in the future & to stop me appearing a timewaster I'll just blunder along in ignorance, and won't bother posting questions in this particular part of BF.

Richard,

Post anything you like and I, at least, will answer. Whatever the tone of this thread I don't think I'll be the only one either.

Graham

 

[Dougie Preston]

I can appreciate the humour with which the OP was made.

However, I am not an expert with IDs, and I have a lot of fieldguides that are either kept on the bookshelf or in the car. Occassionally I would need help from more experienced birders for an ID of what to them could be an easy & common bird.

I've already made the mistake of asking for help with what turned out to be a Kestrel in the end. To avoid any further bother in the future & to stop me appearing a timewaster I'll just blunder along in ignorance, and won't bother posting questions in this particular part of BF.

I think if this is what you really feel, then you have missed the point completely!

The id questions posted here are usually found to be "common" birds because "rare" birds are as the name suggests RARE. So your Kestrel question is no different to my Herring Gull questions posted here. We all need help now and again!!!

The fact you carry the field guide books in your car with you and look at them, means this thread isn't aimed at you.

 

[Richard G]

I think if this is what you really feel, then you have missed the point completely!

The id questions posted here are usually found to be "common" birds because "rare" birds are as the name suggests RARE. So your Kestrel question is no different to my Herring Gull questions posted here. We all need help now and again!!!

The fact you carry the field guide books in your car with you and look at them, means this thread isn't aimed at you.

Hi Dougie,

The point I was trying to make, albeit badly it would seem, is that as a relatively inexperienced birdwatcher I may come across what to the more experienced is "common" but to me is "rare".

Therefore it may not be obvious from the fieldguides as to a correct id, and I would want to ask the question here. It would seem from comments posted earlier that sort of question would be "unwelcome" (probably the wrong word, but can't think of anything better) in a general Q&A section, and should be placed in a "Newbie" section.

Therefore, rather than be made to look "small" and a bit of a "timewaster" I'd probably not post the question in the first place.

Richard

 

[sideshow bob]

Hi Dougie,

The point I was trying to make, albeit badly it would seem, is that as a relatively inexperienced birdwatcher I may come across what to the more experienced is "common" but to me is "rare".

Therefore it may not be obvious from the fieldguides as to a correct id, and I would want to ask the question here. It would seem from comments posted earlier that sort of question would be "unwelcome" (probably the wrong word, but can't think of anything better) in a general Q&A section, and should be placed in a "Newbie" section.

Therefore, rather than be made to look "small" and a bit of a "timewaster" I'd probably not post the question in the first place.

Richard

I think this thread should be closed now. There's too many people missing the original point of the thread (which, being posted by Si, was wrapped in language which may get a few people's back up) and presuming that there is a widespread desire to exclude them from future ID forums.

Then people like me have to repeatedly say "That's not what this thread is about!". Haven't any of you guys read Bobtag's long post from last night?

Hopefully though, the reasoned arguments put forward by many in this thread have given the Mods something to think about re: ID forums.

 

[steveo]

Ehhh.

Maybe anyone should be able to post any wild bird they want to have identified no matter how simple an id. Capping on them for it is f***ING lame. Go ahead and split the forum what does it take five seconds to switch from one to the other.

 

[Oblio]

Hi,

This thread has quite a life.

A few random thoughts and observations from reading through all of the postings as well as a few other ID threads.

It seems as though the intent of the original post was to get more people to consult their field guides. Judging from a few of the posts here and in other threads, this has been somewhat effective on a small scale, notably due to BobTag's encouragement in a couple of instances. Bob's approach is a good one. Work with each individual, one at a time.

There has been some snootiness and elitism exhibited from time to time by various posters, which regardless of their original intent, has had the effect of discouraging others from posting their queries here either temporarily or permanently.

The sensitivities of some have not shown any national bias. That is, the anti-American bashing that occurred early on in this thread was inappropriate and really doesn't belong anywhere on birdforum.

I have noticed a few recent occasions where BobTag and Simon have answered queries about relatively common or reasonably easy identifications where they might easily have responded with a "have you bothered to look at a field guide" comment. While that might be a bit out of character with some of their expressed sentiments, it is a great thing to see and is what this forum is all about.

I agree with those that say that what is easy for some is not for others and vice versa. No two experts have the same knowledge base. It would be an interesting exercise for everyone to list what they felt were the ten toughest and the ten easiest ID threads posted since this one began. I bet that no one's lists would look the same.

Birding isn't what it was twenty years ago. It is much more multimedia. Field guides are essential, and keeping good detailed notes is a virtue. But don't forget cameras, audio recording equipment, and access to high speed internet. There is simply way more information available to new birders these days. And most of the trickiest identifications are answered by detailed analysis of photos or sound recordings, not by field guides.

I think the forum should remain the way it is with all of its imperfections. Anyone who really wants to swim exclusively with big fish may want to check out ID-frontiers, a forum that specifically caters to answering the thorniest problems.

Applying flame retardant as I wrap this up,

Oblio

 

[timwootton]

I'm just adding this as a footnote to Richard's last post.
When I first moved to Orkney (land of the 'rare' bird?!) it took me ages to work out what was a 'rare' bird (I'm still struggling!).
I'd just moved from rural South Yorkshire - woodpeckers (allegedly 3 species, but I doubt L-S woodies actually exist!), tits, nuthatches, etc in abundance. I arrive in Orkney - "What the F . . . . is that?!!" - in my back garden! Ah, just an arctic skua.
Ther's more to our wonderful hobby/love/life/meaning for existing than just identifying a particular bird.
It's all about context. And it takes a heck of long time to learn where each and every species ought to be in any given part of the world at some particular moment in time.
I'd just LOVE to see a blue tit in my garden!
Keep on looking.

 

[changer400]

Splitting the threads wouldn't be a good idea.

Splitting the Threads would be a good idea

Si



Discuss

 

[gerdwichers8]

Splitting the Threads would be a good idea

Si



Discuss

I don't know.
To draw some new dirttracks for their own sake would not stop the asphalt either.