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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Under-binning (1 Viewer)

looksharp65

Well-known member
Sweden
Recently I watched a YT video from one of all the countless cycling channels mostly promoting new tech and industral trends.
The scope of this particular video, however, was the exact opposite - under-biking. The author revisited the '90s when the MTB sport was young and largely underdeveloped.
He mentioned the most notable differences in frame geometry, tyre width and pressure, and the absence of suspension. So he went on by cycling a path he'd known for long, and told about the shortcomings and the acceptable traits of the old bike. Nothing unexpected there.

But he recommended anyone willing to sacrifice a few bucks for some great fun to buy a bike that's a couple of decades or so. It's cheap, it's educating and it's fun.
I'd like to add that a few sessions with old stuff rarely feels very handicapping, but once you're back with your state-of-the-art equipment, it feels really amazing.

Obviously, I have optics on my mind when telling about this video. And I'm lucky to own a retro set consisting of an old but well-preserved Meopta 6x30 porro with antireflective coatings and a Kowa TS-1. They share a few common characteristics, namely lower magnification, smaller AFOV, a yellow colour representation but also very decent sharpness. The little Meopta is incredibly sharp in the center, has a lightning-fast and easy focuser and it's very lightweight. The TS-1 is identical to what my father used from about 1978, and it was decent by yesteryear's standards, but he used a Jenoptem 8x30.

I haven't practised under-binning in the field yet, maybe because I own a decent collection of fairly modern optics and value my leisure time. It would be devastating to miss an ID because of under-binning, while at the same time I feel it might be a cool thing to do for the abovemenioned reasons.
It would also be fun to arrange an under-binning rallye with strict equipment rules with regard to minimum age and maximum magnification.
If I went out to the local reserve with this kit, many fellow local birders would recognise me as that binocular nerd, and just shrug their shoulders. It might be interesting, though, to observe the barely noticeable reactions (and then again some maybe not so discreet) from birders coming in from other places.

So how do you do? Are your old binoculars only curiosities or do you take them to the field? I'm now talking about single-coated optics, mainly porros but also non-phasecoated roofs, and scopes that perform best at 20x but can do 25x with a stretch. Obviously, if there's other vintage optics you use, by all means let us know.

//L
 
I use every single old bino I buy at least once on a one hour walk. If I like it, it'll definitely see more use.
Today for instance I took my new-to-me skeleton 7x18 reverse porro. Talk about underbinning - the FoV is tiny and even further reduced because the ocular bridge hits my nose. But still - there is something about that bino that I used it multiple times during the day to simply look out the window. The center sharpness is amazing, color fidelity really good for an old bino (I like the amber coatings - they make the image much more color neutral than the blueish single coatings), field curvature is small and CA virtually absent. And it just handles lovely. (Even managed to catch a few birds in that tiny FoV and the view was really nice but I wouldn't wanna use it regularly for birding - for static views of the scenery or sightseeing they're perfect however.)
IMG_20230421_072235.jpg

But many other old binos are regularly used. The Komz 7x30 for its razor sharp FoV. Most of the time it sits on the window sill.
EWA 8x30 or 7x35 porros also see regular use.
Some only at night for stargazing like a 9x63 with AK prisms. Not great during the day because of reflections but lovely at night. Same with most 7x50s even the new ones, because of IF. I do however keep an old 7x50 (also AK) in the dining room for quick looks. That one does have CF and great eye relief even by modern standards.
An old Komz 12x45 is sometimes also in use at night - sharper in the center than my Vortex DB 12x50.
The old EWA 7x50 porros are also mostly used for that purpose - simply because no modern instrument with those specifications exists apart from the Nikon WX.
So, yes, they see quite some use.
 
I really enjoy taking some old bino's out. It's interesting to find their limits - and find ways to work around them! I don't wear glasses but tend to find contrast, close focus and c.a control to be the areas where they actually don't "do the job" as well as modern optics but this just makes me use other aspects of a birds features to help with an i.d.

I go birding for fun, to relax and take my mind to other things. I'm not a lister, taking some older ones out with me doesn't detract from the experience (unless I'm surveying!) quite the opposite actually a lot of the time.

Will
 
It would also be fun to arrange an under-binning rallye with strict equipment rules with regard to minimum age and maximum magnification.
In the 1960s I grew up with 10x50 and 15x60 as well as 7x35, so low magnification isn't necessarily typical of vintage bins, and if you're going to limit that arbitrarily you might as well rule out wide field models also. And yes, at that point you'll be risking missed IDs, but instead of trying to maximize the challenge, why not just enjoy using vintage models with more reasonable mag and FOV? Or to look at it the other way around, why not also admit to an "under-binning rallye" recent models that present a greater challenge, like the "200x25"s available on Amazon for $13?

Yes, the looks one gets when the old porro or Hensoldt roof gets pulled out of the case, priceless.
I get some odd looks even when wearing a current E II, so I doubt that most people can tell how old a Porro model is.
 
I must be simple minded, because I cannot fathom why anyone would use older, and inferior, optics in preference to today‘s brilliant offerings. (if you are talking about the best)
I can certainly understand this aspect, and leaving the best sets at home feels weird for me. That said - do you never go camping? Never take a cold bath out there? Do you never ever deviate from the smooth, wide, soporific road of complete comfort just for the sake of curiosity? I believe we sometimes need to be a little shaken to open our eyes and better understand the greatness of what we own, and also that what we left behind isn't necessarily a pile of obsolete crap.

//L
 
In the 1960s I grew up with 10x50 and 15x60 as well as 7x35, so low magnification isn't necessarily typical of vintage bins, and if you're going to limit that arbitrarily you might as well rule out wide field models also. And yes, at that point you'll be risking missed IDs, but instead of trying to maximize the challenge, why not just enjoy using vintage models with more reasonable mag and FOV? Or to look at it the other way around, why not also admit to an "under-binning rallye" recent models that present a greater challenge, like the "200x25"s available on Amazon for $13?


I get some odd looks even when wearing a current E II, so I doubt that most people can tell how old a Porro model is.
Yes, I'm aware that limitations by nature must be arbitrary. I just sketched an example that wasn't intended to be carved in stone. I certainly don't take my own idea too seriously, so please allow yourself to relax as well.

Of course an El Cheapo rallye could be arranged, however it doesn't appeal to me. I can't really see what that would have to do with using older optics.
If I say 'Let's cross the English Channel with wooden row boats', someone saying 'No, why not do it with inflatable pink flamingoes?' Makes no sense and deserves no further comment.

Here in Sweden, there were probably quite a few people with 10x50 East German and Japanese porros, but the most typical binocular were the classic 7x50 and 7x35 models. I believe I recall (although it may be my own mind producing false memories) that 8x binoculars were considered something over-the-top and advised against due to shake. The point is that there were mainstream models as well as outliers, and yes, I agree that it may be a bad idea to exclude WF and high-magnification models from a hypothetic vintage rallye. Heck, it might even be a bad idea to even arrange one.
Or to even think about it.


//L
 
After reaching peak alpha-bino about ten years ago, I went through an insane phase of buying old binos to see how close they came. Zeiss Jena 8x30, Hensoldt something-or-other, that kind of thing. All perfectly useable and fine binoculars, I doubt one would ever have "missed" an ID by using them instead of the alphas of the day. Mind you, I only used them once or twice, before selling them on. It was BF binoforum that made me do it, honestly Your Honour....
 
I can't really see what that would have to do with using older optics.
I can't easily see what using only a limited selection of under-specced older optics has to do with using older optics. That's what I was really trying to say; the Chinese flamingoes were just for the sake of logical completeness. If I hadn't wondered what you were really thinking, I would have let it go without comment.

Zeiss Jena 8x30, Hensoldt something-or-other, that kind of thing.
I'm so often tempted to do this also, but try to content myself with fond memories from fifty years ago (and of course my E II).
 
Most of the binoculars that I use are twenty to sixty years old.

I have new binoculars, but usually prefer the older ones mainly because they have less eye relief, often wider fields and just work better for me.

Maybe for bird watching one must have the latest and greatest, but not for me.

The telescopes are also older than many here on this site, but they work well, and some are more nearly perfect than many of the spotting scopes reviewed here.

For me it is the observation that is important, not the shiny new toys.

Older cameras are also better for me than new cameras that think for themselves, but are actually pretty dumb.

Regards,
B.
 
The nearest equivalent experience I can relate to this thread is about a guy I worked with in the 70s.
He lived at home, on a farm in the Peak District National Park and enjoyed owning two cars. His regular drive was an MGB roadster (lovely car) but he had a Land Rover at home for farm jobs and winter weather.
When he found himself getting bored or disgruntled with his MGB he would drive to work in the Land Rover for a week to remind himself what a good car his roadster was
 
When he found himself getting bored or disgruntled with his MGB he would drive to work in the Land Rover for a week to remind himself what a good car his roadster was
Not really the case for binos though. I like to use older porros to remind myself how good they actually were.
I have this tiny reverse porro in 6x18 with a FoV larger than a Kowa BDII 6.5x32 but without any visible distortion. That thing was made before pincushion distortion was a thing - why did it take 80 years till binoculars got back to this type of performance? The only reason it can't compete with modern binos are the coatings. So this car analogy makes no sense.
The analogy is more like driving an oldtimer with 500 HP but no airbags.
So how come, something like this humble bino on the right beats the one on the left in almost every aspect?
IMG_20230424_120103.jpg
 
I like to use older porros to remind myself how good they actually were.
I have this tiny reverse porro in 6x18 with a FoV larger than a Kowa BDII 6.5x32 but without any visible distortion.
So what is the little 6x18? I've been really curious about this particular combination for a while now, largely because I like compact, but also to still get a 3mm exit at the same time, and your description makes this binocular sound like something I might like to find someday too.

I also really like my old Leitz models and don't really think that all things need to be measured against one another on a comparative scale unless we're working in product development. It's not at all an invalid thing to do, but can definitely ruin the simple enjoyment of life as well if left unchecked.
 
So what is the little 6x18?
It's a "Helios" but I have no idea who actually made these. I checked again and noticed it does indeed have some pincushion dist. so it's probably not as old as I thought. It still has a flatter field than the Kowa, so less field curvature, and the FoV is larger. The "eye box" is also more comfy. Less blackout. But of course eye relief is shorter.
I have another 6x18, not quite as wide though.
And just due to this thread, I just bought another old reverse porro in 7x20 format :D.
Edit: you can get these binos for "pocket change" really. Less than 40€ sometimes less than 20 if you're lucky.
 
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