Upgrade from Nikon ED series... (1 Viewer)

[Darkus_Markus]

I own the Nikon ED50 and ED82 and think they're both great.

Critically though there's two things I don't like...
ED50 - lack of clarity and detail as it's a smaller objective scope.
ED82 - Size and weight, especially when coupled with a sturdy tripod.

I use the 27x and 30x DS eyepieces most of the time. I have the zoom but have to say I'm not a big fan and find it very uncomfortable once it's zoomed in.

I'm looking for recommendations for a scope which is lightweight and portable but has a fantastic image and decent zoom. Ideally around or under £1000.

The nearest thing I've seen that is both compact and has an excellent zoom and image is the Leica Televid 62 but have found used examples of these extremely hard to find.

If I was to increase my budget and buy new I imagine I'd be looking at the Kowa 553 or Swarovski ATS 65.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

[marcsantacurz]

I recently bought the Opticron MM4 60 with the 23x, 32x, and zoom 15-45x (SDLv2). It's my first scope, and I am very happy with it. Others on the site have compared it well with some of the models you mention. Unfortunately, the 32x eyepiece is out of production; they only have a 17x and 23x fixed. The zoom is 38* - 68* AFoV, whereas the fixed are all around 65* (23x) - 67* (32x). It's a nice compact, lightweight scope.

The Kowa 553 was the 2nd choice (and much more expensive). There was also a Swaro ATM65 on the auction site I was thinking of, but it's quite a bit heavier. I decided size, weight, and cost all favored the MM4. And I was happy with the view when I tried it out at a bird fair.

Marc

 

[etudiant]

I supplemented my ED50 with the 60mm EDIII, for easier viewing, exactly as you.
Sadly it is also correspondingly bigger and almost 2 pounds heavier, plus add in the upgraded tripod, so when traveling it gets left behind.
The Kowa 553 is probably the state of the art lightweight zoom scope today, but pricey.

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I wonder if the proposed new 77mm MM4 would be a good solution. It seems like it might be an interesting scope:
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=373139

 

[etudiant]

I wonder if the proposed new 77mm MM4 would be a good solution. It seems like it might be an interesting scope:
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=373139

Very interesting indeed, the same weight as the EDIII, about 1250 gms, with a 65% greater aperture area. Presumably the weight saved by the composite shell offsets the bigger glass.
Thank you for highlighting this new model.

 

[Darkus_Markus]

Thanks for the input all.

Yes that MM4 77 looks very interesting, It would be nice if there was a new zoom to go with it as I believe the current compatible zoom has a max of x45.

Found some more info here...
http://www.birders-store.co.uk/opticron-mm4-77-ga-ed45-body.html

I wonder if there'll be a trend with scope manufactures to do follow in the footsteps of the Kowa 553 etc

 

[marcsantacurz]

Thanks for the input all.

Yes that MM4 77 looks very interesting, It would be nice if there was a new zoom to go with it as I believe the current compatible zoom has a max of x45.

Found some more info here...
http://www.birders-store.co.uk/opticron-mm4-77-ga-ed45-body.html

I wonder if there'll be a trend with scope manufactures to do follow in the footsteps of the Kowa 553 etc

The current zooms will be around 19-58x on the 77mm. Opticron lists ithe SDLv2 as 20-60x on the 80mm ES. They should all scale. Just take the magnification on the MM4 60 and multiply by 77/60 to get about what it would be.

Marc

 

[Jason Bugay Reyes]

I own the Nikon ED50 and ED82 and think they're both great.

Critically though there's two things I don't like...
ED50 - lack of clarity and detail as it's a smaller objective scope.
ED82 - Size and weight, especially when coupled with a sturdy tripod.

I use the 27x and 30x DS eyepieces most of the time. I have the zoom but have to say I'm not a big fan and find it very uncomfortable once it's zoomed in.

I'm looking for recommendations for a scope which is lightweight and portable but has a fantastic image and decent zoom. Ideally around or under £1000.

The nearest thing I've seen that is both compact and has an excellent zoom and image is the Leica Televid 62 but have found used examples of these extremely hard to find.

If I was to increase my budget and buy new I imagine I'd be looking at the Kowa 553 or Swarovski ATS 65.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

I used to have the same combo except with zoom eyepiece 13-40x MCII on the ED50.

Then I upgraded to Nikon EDG85. Superb and great scope for digiscoping and viewing but heavy!

Then I got the opportunity to own the 65 and 95mm STX scopes by Swarovski. The 65mm is a must have if you like to do a lot of walking and a bit of digiscoping. The 95mm is excellent for Digiscoping and low light birding too

 

[pete_gamby]

The HDF and SDL zoom eyepieces will deliver 18-54x on the MM4 77.

HTH

Cheers, Pete

 

[Tringa45]

The current zooms will be around 19-58x on the 77mm. Opticron lists ithe SDLv2 as 20-60x on the 80mm ES. They should all scale. Just take the magnification on the MM4 60 and multiply by 77/60 to get about what it would be.

Marc

Magnification is the quotient of the focal lengths of objective and eyepiece. One can't assume that all scopes from the same manufacturer will have the same focal ratio (objective focal length/aperture).
The Swarovski ATS/STS 65 & 80 scopes have the same 460 mm focal length and the 770 and 880 Kowas both have 500 mm focal length so will give identical magnification with the same eyepieces.

John

 

[marcsantacurz]

Magnification is the quotient of the focal lengths of objective and eyepiece. One can't assume that all scopes from the same manufacturer will have the same focal ratio (objective focal length/aperture).
The Swarovski ATS/STS 65 & 80 scopes have the same 460 mm focal length and the 770 and 880 Kowas both have 500 mm focal length so will give identical magnification with the same eyepieces.

John

Yes, I had assumed they would scale it like the MM4 50 to 60 to 77. Pete, in #9, does confirm it's close to what I guessed. I did not make that assumption clear in my post, thank you for pointing it out.

Marc

 

[jring]

The HDF and SDL zoom eyepieces will deliver 18-54x on the MM4 77.

HTH

Cheers, Pete

Hi Pete,

ah, a typo then - that makes more sense.

With 45x as max magnification the 77mm body would have had a focal length of 360mm and thus a focal ratio of f4.7 - which is really quite fast and will usually need a triplet or quadruplet objective to work.
With 54x we're talking about 432mm and f5.6 which is fairly standard... Hopefully I can see this one side by side with my old 77mm TSN-3 sometime - will be interesting.

Thanks for the info!

Joachim

 

[Darkus_Markus]

After a trip to Scotland last week (in which I was using the ED50 and ED82 side by side) I really noticed the difference in detail when comparing the two. No real surprises there, but made me realise I'd like something with a bit more clarity and a decent zoom for travelling. (I'll keep the ED82 for when I have the car)

My initial thought is just to bite the bullet and go for the Swarovski ATS 65 w 20-50, granted it's not the lightest but I love the zoom and it's clearly a great scope. Though quite a bit more than I'd like to spend.

Looking around I'm also thinking about...

Opticron MM4 60ED (V2 Zoom)
Opticron MM4 77ED (V2 Zoom)
Kowa 663 20-60 (not a scope I hear much about)
I was thinking of the Kowa 553 but after a few views I'm not so keen on the eyepiece.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has upgraded from the ED50 and likewise if anyone has compared any of the listed to the Swarovski ?

With the 77mm objective does anyone think the Opticron could be considered comparable to the ATS 65 ?

As usual, any help much appreciated.

Cheers

 

[PYRTLE]

Are you comparing a standard Swarovski ATS65 or a HD ? The Kowa 663 Prominar is a lovely lightweight scope though. You need to find somewhere that has one to try. Just bite the bullet and go for an ATS 65 HD........you'll forget about what it cost in a years time.

 

[dwatsonbirder]

I had an ATS65HD which I sold and replaced with the ED50/82 combo. Have you tried a different sample of the smaller scope as mine is just as sharp as the ED82?
On a side note, I compared the ED50 with the MM3 60mm +SDL zoom last year, and if you are after a travel scope with a decent zoom and don't mind the additional weight, it is a very good set up, though only you can decide if it is worth the switch. I second Pyrtle's recommendation of the Kowa 663, optically as good as the Swaro with the 30x wide, but the zoom doesn't cut the mustard in my opinion.

 

[Alexis Powell]

...I was using the ED50 and ED82 side by side) I really noticed the difference in detail when comparing the two. No real surprises there, but made me realise I'd like something with a bit more clarity and a decent zoom for travelling...

Did you notice a difference in detail at the same magnification, or were you using higher magnification with the big scope? I've never noticed much difference in detail through my 50ED with 27x eyepiece versus my 78ED or 82ED with 30x eyepieces. Obviously, the bigger scopes support higher magnifications that can show more detail. Lately, I've been using my big scopes with zooms, much of the time at their maximum magnification (78ED at 75x, and Kowa 883 at 96x), to examine and photograph head patterns of basking turtles. Both are super sharp (but the wide FOV of the Kowa zoom makes it much nicer than Nikon's old zoom) and amazingly good, so I've become accustomed to the view delivered by high quality large scopes. Nevertheless, when I did a long distance bird count hike last weekend with my 50ED at 27x, it struck me as being as sharp as could be at that magnification, which I find perfect for >95% of birding applications.

--AP

 

[Darkus_Markus]

Alexis, In a word ...yes. I think when comparing the ED50 (x27) and ED82 (x30) The image feels larger (not just the extra x3 mag) and thus more detail is visible.

I've always enjoyed the view through my ED50 but certainly possible it isn't a perfect example.

I really noticed this detail difference watching some divers quite far out on the sea, with the ED50 IDing the bird was easy and it's markings were visible. When viewing the same bird through the ED82 it was just a different experience, brighter bigger image, subtle details visible etc.

I was a little out of practice with my cable tie aiming technique, so glad I had the ED50 when I couldn't get on the bird.

It was this faffing around which made me think a scope with a decent zoom would be the ideal solution.

PYRTLE - It was indeed the HD version.
dwatsonbirder - Thanks for the info.

 

[Blue72]

Instead of new scope, have you considered a new eyepiece for the ed50. Many say 27x pushes the design of the scope. After all your looking at an exit pupil under 2mm

 

[Hermann]

Alexis, In a word ...yes. I think when comparing the ED50 (x27) and ED82 (x30) The image feels larger (not just the extra x3 mag) and thus more detail is visible. <snip>

I really noticed this detail difference watching some divers quite far out on the sea, with the ED50 IDing the bird was easy and it's markings were visible. When viewing the same bird through the ED82 it was just a different experience, brighter bigger image, subtle details visible etc.

So it should be. After all, we're talking here about exit pupils of ~1.8mm (ED50 at 27x) vs. 2.7mm (ED82 at 30x). That difference is IMO always clearly visible, even on a bright day, and even if both scopes are of similar optical quality. Size matters. It's as simple as that. Compare the scopes at 40x, and the difference will be even more pronounced.

However, I've got all three of the old fieldscopes (ED50, EDIIIA and ED82A), and I did quite a few comparisons over the years. And IMO the ED50 is a brilliant little scope that works very well indeed - unless you expect it to do things it just can't do due to its small objective lens. I use mine whenever I hike longer distances, simply because it's so small and light and works well with a lightweight tripod and a tiny ballhead if need be.

I tend to use fairly low magnifications with the ED50, usually around 20x, only switching to higher magnifications when necessary. My favourite eyepiece is the 16x WA (24x on the EDIII, 30x on the ED82), and I find that eyepiece works pretty well even with the Zeiss tripler (3x12), resulting in 48x and an exit pupil of just over 1mm. Sure, the view is pretty dim and mushy, but I find I get quite a bit more detail than at 16x. Good enough for a quick ID anyway.

Last point: You *may* have a lemon, that's always possible. However, one of the funny things is that the Nikon fieldscopes are pretty uniform in quality. I know several ED50s and more than a handful of 60mm scopes quite well, and even though there are some small differences I've never looked through an obvious lemon.

Some other manufacturers seem to have (or at least had) a lot more lemons they happily sell (or sold) to their customers.

Hermann

 

[jring]

Hi,

a good example of ED50 should be able to show a sharp and detailed image at 27x - if a 1.8mm exit pupil was anywhere near the resolution limit, you would see image degradation beyond 44x with an 80mm scope too - and the vast majority of different examples I have looked through was good way beyond that.

As for brightness, yes the difference between 1.8 and 2.7mm should be visible, but 1.8mm is perfectly fine in my opinion - I usually use a 1.4mm exit pupil unless it's dawn or dusk.

To decide if the ED50 in question is ok, a star test with the maximum available magnification is recommended.

Joachim