Beverlybaynes
Mod Squad
And who was Bachman? and Kirtland? As in warbler?
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What's in a Name? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Charles Harper
- Start date
Michael Frankis wrote:
"I'm going to stick with Common Gull. Perfectly appropriate, certainly far more so than the BOU's 'Common Nightingale' which is anything but common in English-speaking areas."
Of the two Nightingale species 'Common' is actually the only one which occurs regularly in English speaking areas so as far as names go is indeed appropriate. Rufous Nightingale is my preferred name for that species anyway.
The problem with Common Gull as a name is that in most places it is heavily outnumbered by other species of gull. It might suit you as a moniker because of your particular context but it is nonsense to most people. The use of the title Common should generally be avoided as it is inevitably parochial.
MV
"I'm going to stick with Common Gull. Perfectly appropriate, certainly far more so than the BOU's 'Common Nightingale' which is anything but common in English-speaking areas."
Of the two Nightingale species 'Common' is actually the only one which occurs regularly in English speaking areas so as far as names go is indeed appropriate. Rufous Nightingale is my preferred name for that species anyway.
The problem with Common Gull as a name is that in most places it is heavily outnumbered by other species of gull. It might suit you as a moniker because of your particular context but it is nonsense to most people. The use of the title Common should generally be avoided as it is inevitably parochial.
MV
Michael Frankis
conehead
Hi MV,
Common Gull is just as apt as Common Tern, Common Sandpiper, Common Scoter, etc. Do you propose changing them as well?
I'd agree that 'Common' may be best avoided when coining a new name, but where it is a well-established existing name, that shouldn't be a pretext to change it. Yet also the AOU appear to have no problem with newly-coined names like Common Crane or Common Cuckoo, even though they're far from applicable within America.
Of Nightingales, 'Rufous' is OK, but I'd have preferred Southern Nightingale (a direct translation of the existing Danish & Swedish names), which reflects its breeding distribution relative to the other species in the genus
Michael
Common Gull is just as apt as Common Tern, Common Sandpiper, Common Scoter, etc. Do you propose changing them as well?
I'd agree that 'Common' may be best avoided when coining a new name, but where it is a well-established existing name, that shouldn't be a pretext to change it. Yet also the AOU appear to have no problem with newly-coined names like Common Crane or Common Cuckoo, even though they're far from applicable within America.
Of Nightingales, 'Rufous' is OK, but I'd have preferred Southern Nightingale (a direct translation of the existing Danish & Swedish names), which reflects its breeding distribution relative to the other species in the genus
Michael
Charles Harper
Régisseur
I had thought that 'Common' was selected for the species in a genus (or related group) which had the broadest overall or worldwide range, irrespective of its abundance in any particular part of its range.
Michael Frankis
conehead
Hi Charles,
No, and yes.
First, the no. For long-established names like Common Gull, Common Tern, etc, it tended to be selected for the species that is/was most conspicuous to the casual observer in England / Britain, regardless of whether they were the most widespread worldwide, nor even necessarily the most numerous in England
e.g. 1: Arctic Tern and Sandwich Tern are both more numerous than Common Tern in Britain, but are more concentrated in small areas so less visible to everyone as a whole
e.g. 2: Black-headed Gull is more numerous than Common Gull in Britain, but Common Gulls are more obvious to the average person because of their greater commensalism with man - the gulls that everyone sees on on urban school football pitches are mostly Commons, while the Black-headeds are mostly down on the south coast wetlands where nobody other than birders go.
After all, English names originally only applied in England, until later they also got used in other areas colonised by English-speaking people (USA, Australia, etc). Elsewhere, it would be the equivalent in the local lingo.
Second, the yes. A lot of birds are only represented in Britain by a single species, which had a single name, e.g. Raven, Cuckoo, Robin, Wren, etc. In recent years there has been a trend to invent qualifier terms to add to their names to distinguish them from other similar species (related or not!) with the same group name elsewhere in the world. In these cases, where 'Common' has been chosen as the qualifier (e.g. Common Raven, Common Cuckoo), there has been at least some attempt to select it only for species where it is the globally most widespread.
Michael
No, and yes.
First, the no. For long-established names like Common Gull, Common Tern, etc, it tended to be selected for the species that is/was most conspicuous to the casual observer in England / Britain, regardless of whether they were the most widespread worldwide, nor even necessarily the most numerous in England
e.g. 1: Arctic Tern and Sandwich Tern are both more numerous than Common Tern in Britain, but are more concentrated in small areas so less visible to everyone as a whole
e.g. 2: Black-headed Gull is more numerous than Common Gull in Britain, but Common Gulls are more obvious to the average person because of their greater commensalism with man - the gulls that everyone sees on on urban school football pitches are mostly Commons, while the Black-headeds are mostly down on the south coast wetlands where nobody other than birders go.
After all, English names originally only applied in England, until later they also got used in other areas colonised by English-speaking people (USA, Australia, etc). Elsewhere, it would be the equivalent in the local lingo.
Second, the yes. A lot of birds are only represented in Britain by a single species, which had a single name, e.g. Raven, Cuckoo, Robin, Wren, etc. In recent years there has been a trend to invent qualifier terms to add to their names to distinguish them from other similar species (related or not!) with the same group name elsewhere in the world. In these cases, where 'Common' has been chosen as the qualifier (e.g. Common Raven, Common Cuckoo), there has been at least some attempt to select it only for species where it is the globally most widespread.
Michael
andythomas
Well-known member
Sorry Michael, I'm going to have to object. Common Gulls might be the most common in Northumberland, but here in the West Midlands they are a scarce winter visitor. The birds on our football pitches are Lesser Black-backed Gulls, now breeding here in small numbers, and Black-headed Gulls, both of which winter here in large numbers. And when I say winter, they are here from July to March.
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Andy
--
Andy
Michael Frankis
conehead
Hi Andy,
Remember to check what the situation was when Common Gull was named too - how many Lesser Black-Backs were there around a couple of hundred years ago? Probably very few, as the LBB move inland is a recent phenomenon. BHG have also increased hugely in the last 100 years since they got protection in the breeding season.
As for Northumberland, as I've already mentioned, CG outnumbers all other gulls put together by 3:1 in winter (this is roost counts from the annual county bird reports, not just personal impressions). I suspect the same or similar applies throughout northern Britain.
Michael
Remember to check what the situation was when Common Gull was named too - how many Lesser Black-Backs were there around a couple of hundred years ago? Probably very few, as the LBB move inland is a recent phenomenon. BHG have also increased hugely in the last 100 years since they got protection in the breeding season.
As for Northumberland, as I've already mentioned, CG outnumbers all other gulls put together by 3:1 in winter (this is roost counts from the annual county bird reports, not just personal impressions). I suspect the same or similar applies throughout northern Britain.
Michael
andythomas
Well-known member
Hi Michael
I'm sure you're correct with your historical analysis. Personally the history of bird populations and ornithology in general is something which interests me alot. I'll have to try and read up about gull populations when I get home tonight.
You're right about gulls wintering and breeding inland as a recent phenomenon. When I was young you hardly ever saw gulls round here.
However when you were talking about football pitches and southern wetlands I thought you referring to the current situation. Sorry if I misunderstood.
--
Andy
I'm sure you're correct with your historical analysis. Personally the history of bird populations and ornithology in general is something which interests me alot. I'll have to try and read up about gull populations when I get home tonight.
You're right about gulls wintering and breeding inland as a recent phenomenon. When I was young you hardly ever saw gulls round here.
However when you were talking about football pitches and southern wetlands I thought you referring to the current situation. Sorry if I misunderstood.
--
Andy
birdman
Орнитол&
There you go, Charles
Cassin's Alseonax - Muscicapa cassini
Cassin's Auklet - Ptychoramphus aleuticus
Cassin's Finch - Carpodacus cassinii
Cassin's Hawk-Eagle - Spizaetus africanus
Cassin's Honeyguide - Prodotiscus insignis
Cassin's Kingbird - Tyrannus vociferans
Cassin's Sparrow - Aimophila cassinii
Cassin's Spinetail - Neafrapus cassini
Cassin's Vireo - Vireo cassinii
Sad thing is... I already had the list on my PC!
Cassin's Alseonax - Muscicapa cassini
Cassin's Auklet - Ptychoramphus aleuticus
Cassin's Finch - Carpodacus cassinii
Cassin's Hawk-Eagle - Spizaetus africanus
Cassin's Honeyguide - Prodotiscus insignis
Cassin's Kingbird - Tyrannus vociferans
Cassin's Sparrow - Aimophila cassinii
Cassin's Spinetail - Neafrapus cassini
Cassin's Vireo - Vireo cassinii
Sad thing is... I already had the list on my PC!
birdman
Орнитол&
Hi Beverly
Steller's Eider - Polysticta stelleri
Steller's Jay - Cyanocitta stelleri
Steller's Sea-Eagle - Haliaeetus pelagicus
Only 3 (in my list!) but I understand Mr. Steller didn't restrict himself to discovering birds - I know of Steller's Sea-cow (now extinct), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.
As for Messrs. Bachman and Kirtland...
Bachman's Sparrow - Aimophila aestivalis
Bachman's Warbler - Vermivora bachmanii
Kirtland's Warbler - Dendroica kirtlandii
...and that would appear to be your lot!
Steller's Eider - Polysticta stelleri
Steller's Jay - Cyanocitta stelleri
Steller's Sea-Eagle - Haliaeetus pelagicus
Only 3 (in my list!) but I understand Mr. Steller didn't restrict himself to discovering birds - I know of Steller's Sea-cow (now extinct), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.
As for Messrs. Bachman and Kirtland...
Bachman's Sparrow - Aimophila aestivalis
Bachman's Warbler - Vermivora bachmanii
Kirtland's Warbler - Dendroica kirtlandii
...and that would appear to be your lot!
Charles Harper
Régisseur
Hey, might have the makin's of another LIST, Birdman! I've seen four of the nine Cassin'ses and all three of the Steller'ses!
Beverlybaynes
Mod Squad
Thanks, Birdman. Now I know what you've been doing while home sick -- and I do hope you're feeling better!!
I've not seen ANY of those named-for-folks birds. Hmmmmm....a new reason to bird and list!
I've not seen ANY of those named-for-folks birds. Hmmmmm....a new reason to bird and list!
Michael Frankis
conehead
Eleonora's Falcon
and . . . who was Lady Amherst's Peasant ??
Michael
and . . . who was Lady Amherst's Peasant ??
Michael
Charles Harper
Régisseur
I did a little index research myself, and found a number of other possible affairs of the heart enshrined in the nomenclature:
Victoria's Riflebird
Lina's Sunbird
Lilian's Lovebird
Goldie's Lorikeet
Josephine's Lorikeet
Frances' Goshawk
Cherrie's Antwren
Ah, what romance may lie hidden here!
In fact, there's a heck of a lot of ornithological namesakes, from Albert's Lyrebird to Zimmer's Tapaculo...
... And with a little better sense of humour, we could have had the likes of
Finsch's Finch
Pallas' Bustard
Peale's Teal
Newton's Figbird
Shelley's Skylark
Chubb's Chough
Tickell's Laughingthrush
Todd's Tody...
... And, I found a name that I simply cannot pronounce--
Berlepsch's Canastero. I really should get back to work and do something constructive...
Victoria's Riflebird
Lina's Sunbird
Lilian's Lovebird
Goldie's Lorikeet
Josephine's Lorikeet
Frances' Goshawk
Cherrie's Antwren
Ah, what romance may lie hidden here!
In fact, there's a heck of a lot of ornithological namesakes, from Albert's Lyrebird to Zimmer's Tapaculo...
... And with a little better sense of humour, we could have had the likes of
Finsch's Finch
Pallas' Bustard
Peale's Teal
Newton's Figbird
Shelley's Skylark
Chubb's Chough
Tickell's Laughingthrush
Todd's Tody...
... And, I found a name that I simply cannot pronounce--
Berlepsch's Canastero. I really should get back to work and do something constructive...
Michael Frankis
conehead
Charles Harper said:
How about Cretzschmar's Bunting?
Michael
Charles Harper
Régisseur
No, Michael, I think I can say 'Cretzschmar's': /kretzshma:rz/. But I cannot get my tongue around 'Berlepsh's' (/berlepshz/)! Unless it's /berlepshez/...
Michael Frankis
conehead
Consider ourselves lucky it's birds we're dealing with . . . these three genera of shrimps exist to confound marine biologists:
Swartschewskiechinogammarus
Toxophthalmoechinogammarus
Cornutokytodermogammarus
Michael
Swartschewskiechinogammarus
Toxophthalmoechinogammarus
Cornutokytodermogammarus
Michael
Darrell Clegg
Well-known member
The classic books on the subject are by Barbara and Richard Mearns
Biographies for Birdwatchers
Audubon to Xanthu
The Bird Collectors
All published by Academic Press - and all excellent
Darrell
Biographies for Birdwatchers
Audubon to Xanthu
The Bird Collectors
All published by Academic Press - and all excellent
Darrell
birdman
Орнитол&
Gotta feel a bit sorry for Pere David... whoever he was. Either someone is trying to expunge him from ornithological history, or he was the world's greatest "discoverer" of species already known.
His three entrants all have alternative names...
Plain Laughingthrush or Pere David's Laughingthrush
Rusty-breasted Tit or Pere David's Tit
Sichuan Wood-Owl or Pere David's Owl
Hey ho!
His three entrants all have alternative names...
Plain Laughingthrush or Pere David's Laughingthrush
Rusty-breasted Tit or Pere David's Tit
Sichuan Wood-Owl or Pere David's Owl
Hey ho!
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