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White or Pied Wagtail (UK) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Roy C
- Start date
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I'm not sure that the juveniles can be separate in the field, especially since hybrids are not rare.
Southern Viking
Well-known member
No offence but the photo looks over processed to buggery, which won't be helping the plumage tones and contrasts.
Roy C
Occasional bird snapper
Thanks, there was very little processing done - converted from RAW - Tiff then just noise reduction and a bit of sharpening before saving as a jpeg for the web.
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
the colours look perfectly normal for a juv Motacilla alba IMO.
That's not how I think it should be expressed but, yes, there is a high degree of processing here - the feather-detail has that unreal 'painted' effect (no offence). The colours look plausibly correct though. In my opinion.
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
1st-w fem alba, age confirmed by obvious moult-limit in greater coverts, 2 innermost (GC 9 & 10) replaced fresh adult type with broad grey tips contrasting with worn juvenile feathers with narrow white tips.
Useful reference https://cdnfiles2.biolovision.net/w...THE-SEPARATION-OF-WHITE-AND-PIED-WAGTAILS.pdf
Grahame
Useful reference https://cdnfiles2.biolovision.net/w...THE-SEPARATION-OF-WHITE-AND-PIED-WAGTAILS.pdf
Grahame
I think most will have assumed that to be its age... rather, it's the racial identity that's of interest, eg...
(which I took to mean separating the races rather than separating from adult).
Apart from the whole paper cited, are there a couple of key points that ID (rather than age) this bird?
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I did some research on migrant on South-West France (cap Ferret) in autumn 2012, White Wagtail having been part of the numerous passerines passing through the area then. The number of individuals having mixed characters is high and I also remember that I've read some publications confirming that hybrids are many in North-western France and South-eastern England. In case hybrids were rare, separating the two in different species would be better.
In such an article as you linked, identifying looks always feasable compared to the reality in the field, but the authors seem to ignore that, by definition of subspecies, identification outside breeding range is never certain. They state that identification is relatively straightforfard in spring. Actually, outside breeding range, you are never 100% sure of the identification. Even a perfect phenotype of a spring male of one taxon can be actually mixed genes ; and many are indeed, in this case.
Alexander Stöhr
Well-known member
Hello,
excellent and helpful, thanks Grahame as always and all!
My question, I agree with Valéry, is can this bird identified as ssp alba with confidence? I would skip the hybrid issue, no offense you know. (yes its interesting, but it obscures some important questions here imo)
My thoughts
Conclusion? As said, can a pale yarrelli excluded with confidence (by colour of the uppertail-coverts and more)? I hope for more comments: thanks Grahame and all!
excellent and helpful, thanks Grahame as always and all!
My question, I agree with Valéry, is can this bird identified as ssp alba with confidence? I would skip the hybrid issue, no offense you know. (yes its interesting, but it obscures some important questions here imo)
My thoughts
- I got the impression of a graphik here too, reminds of the excellent paintings from Ian Lewington. But grey and black hues can still judged with enough confidence, I think.
- So the rump seems dark grey (and not greyish-black or even black). This is an important ID-feature according to literature, but I always have the cautious words from the DB paper in mind, stating that a few autumn Pied Wagtails appear to lack black on the rump. https://www.researchgate.net/public...w_look/link/0468aa92353daac409c39683/download
- or are the dark grey (not black or is there a full jet-black one?) uppertail-coverts enough to exclude a yarrelli with confidence? Skipping the hybrid issue as said, I hope reason is understandable.
- Yes, darkness of mantle is easy within variation for an autumn alba, but its at the dark end of variation for this ssp., at least in Germany (please compare to this "normal dark" juvenile alba (not 1st winter, thanks Grahame again!) (Schwetzinger Wiesen, SW-Germany, 01.07.2011)
Conclusion? As said, can a pale yarrelli excluded with confidence (by colour of the uppertail-coverts and more)? I hope for more comments: thanks Grahame and all!
Like Alex, I would not exclude yarrellii here.
In fact, there is a hint of a few grey stripes on the belly.
If these are not the mere product of noise reduction in the photograph, they are strongly indicative of yarrellii.
As for the Evans & Cade paper, keep in mind that some of the birds in there have been wrongly identified (in my opinion).
In fact, there is a hint of a few grey stripes on the belly.
If these are not the mere product of noise reduction in the photograph, they are strongly indicative of yarrellii.
As for the Evans & Cade paper, keep in mind that some of the birds in there have been wrongly identified (in my opinion).
