Wagtails - (Cyprus) (1 Viewer)

[DoghouseRiley]

Hi All
On a short break I bumped into a flock of what appeared to be "blue-headed" wagtails. There were 8-10, it was hot and sunny and I clicked away until they got bored of me and moved on. So now I am back and I have checked through the pics and........... well, there is a lot of variation.
I managed to get hold of "Eastern yellow wagtails in Europe" (Bot, Groenendijk, van Oosten) and that hasn't helped. The names used below are from Collins 2nd ed.
Pic1 - Maybe M. cinereocapilla? The head colour hasn't fully darkened, white line can be seen under the cheek. Maybe M. "dombrowskii
Pic2 - This seems to look like M. "superciliaris". White strip above the eye but not below the cheek.
Pic3 - This seems to look like M. "superciliaris", just that the head hasn't taken on the dark grey/blue colour yet. Perhaps immature?
Pic4 - This seems to look like M. feldegg. Very dark head, no white.
Pic5 - Maybe M. iberiae? White throat and white above the eye.
Pic6 - This looks like M. feldegg but has a white line under the cheek.
I saw no females (I am presuming these are males). They were feeding on open grass land by the sea and could be migrating in but behaved as though they were part of the same flock. Feeding, looking out, moving from area to area together.
Could someone please take a look and help.
Thanks, Gareth

 

[Andy Adcock]

No expert but I think you're pretty close here.

 

[lou salomon]

No cinereocapilla and no iberiae among them - all these phenotypes are the common picture of the wild mix between flava and feldegg seen in eastern Europe. 3 (and maybe 6) look pure feldegg, the others are all hybrids. Many resemble northern thunbergi, those with white supercillium and black head are 'supercilliaris', those with yellow supers are called 'xanthophrys' and the whole bunch of transitional forms are just that - transitions. Last bird would be 'melanogrisea' (with white between hood and yellow underparts) - usually a form from western Central Asia but 2cy male feldegg can show such a white beard also. All these hybrid forms can be produced by either flava x feldegg or beema x feldegg.

 

[DoghouseRiley]

No cinereocapilla and no iberiae among them - all these phenotypes are the common picture of the wild mix between flava and feldegg seen in eastern Europe. 3 (and maybe 6) look pure feldegg, the others are all hybrids. Many resemble northern thunbergi, those with white supercillium and black head are 'supercilliaris', those with yellow supers are called 'xanthophrys' and the whole bunch of transitional forms are just that - transitions. Last bird would be 'melanogrisea' (with white between hood and yellow underparts) - usually a form from western Central Asia but 2cy male feldegg can show such a white beard also. All these hybrid forms can be produced by either flava x feldegg or beema x feldegg.

So roughly speaking Lou, they could be anything but likely to be either flava x feldegg or beema x feldegg?

Yours, Gareth

 

[lou salomon]

So roughly speaking Lou, they could be anything but likely to be either flava x feldegg or beema x feldegg?

Yours, Gareth

I don't think they could be anything, it's rather that the named hybrid combos show a bewildering range of forms, some of which strongly resemble other subspecies. If you have ever birded in eastern Europe in spring you will see what I mean. Vagrant cinereocapilla I'd ID only if they look very typical. Thunbergi can be IDed on phenology and call, iberiae is rather unlikely there but and some 'dombrowskii'-types can look very similar to iberiae, usually they have the harsh feldegg call, though - dombrowskii not being a clear cut form, it comes in thousends of transitions and usually doesn't resemble the pics in Svensson (Collins), usually having a green rather than grey nape or a crown of grey interspersed with green, but darker auriculars.

 

[angusmcoatup]

No cinereocapilla and no iberiae among them - all these phenotypes are the common picture of the wild mix between flava and feldegg seen in eastern Europe. 3 (and maybe 6) look pure feldegg, the others are all hybrids. Many resemble northern thunbergi, those with white supercillium and black head are 'supercilliaris', those with yellow supers are called 'xanthophrys' and the whole bunch of transitional forms are just that - transitions. Last bird would be 'melanogrisea' (with white between hood and yellow underparts) - usually a form from western Central Asia but 2cy male feldegg can show such a white beard also. All these hybrid forms can be produced by either flava x feldegg or beema x feldegg.

This is useful for me. There was a huge number of Yellow Wagtails around my area in SW Turkey yesterday with several similar to these.

 

[DoghouseRiley]

This is useful for me. There was a huge number of Yellow Wagtails around my area in SW Turkey yesterday with several similar to these.

What I found interesting was that all were male and the variation. I guess they were passing through on migration and there was enough similarity to flock together.

 

[DoghouseRiley]

I don't think they could be anything, it's rather that the named hybrid combos show a bewildering range of forms, some of which strongly resemble other subspecies. If you have ever birded in eastern Europe in spring you will see what I mean. Vagrant cinereocapilla I'd ID only if they look very typical. Thunbergi can be IDed on phenology and call, iberiae is rather unlikely there but and some 'dombrowskii'-types can look very similar to iberiae, usually they have the harsh feldegg call, though - dombrowskii not being a clear cut form, it comes in thousends of transitions and usually doesn't resemble the pics in Svensson (Collins), usually having a green rather than grey nape or a crown of grey interspersed with green, but darker auriculars.

Sorry Lou. I didn't mean it like that. I appreciate your great knowledge and help. What I meant was that it appears that these wagtails are going to be very difficult to ID definitively without DNA etc. I do find it interesting how some birds species "cross" with similar species. And wonder if this is more common than I have thought before. Chiffchaffs that sound like Willow Warblers and vice versa come to mind.

 

[Butty]

I do find it interesting how some birds species "cross" with similar species.

In the great majority of bird groups this is very very rare - to the extent that, in the great majority of bird groups, you can, for practical purposes, forget about it ever happening. And in the discussion above, on your observation, there is no mention of different species being involved: the forms discussed are all subspecies of one species - yellow wagtail - and the intermediate forms between them are better called intergrades rather than hybrids.

 

[smiths]

Isn't YW1.jpg a female feldegg?
The dark head and pale eyering certainly look good for that option.

 

[Grahame Walbridge]

Isn't YW1.jpg a female feldegg?
The dark head and pale eyering certainly look good for that option.

No Peter its a male, yellow underparts way to saturated for a female of any ssp.

Grahame

 

[lou salomon]

yes, definitely a male, and apart from a slight supercillium its crown also has patchy green parts in it, nape is grey-green. Many if not most hybrids show this strange green in the usually grey or black parts of the head.

 

[DoghouseRiley]

Thanks for your input guys, appreciated, Gareth