-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Why pay more? Comfort, focus action, and resolution (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter chris6
- Start date
CharleyBird
Well-known member
I think you pretty much answered the question in your title.
When I go into Aldi or Lidl, I like to check their 10x25 offerings as a reminder why I've spent so much on various binoculars that work & feel better and are far more enjoyable to use.
The question may be:
On what are you willing to compromise?
When I go into Aldi or Lidl, I like to check their 10x25 offerings as a reminder why I've spent so much on various binoculars that work & feel better and are far more enjoyable to use.
The question may be:
On what are you willing to compromise?
Binocollector
Well-known member
Too bad the rest of the post is missing. But talking cheap binos (apart from buying used where rules are different and sometimes you get lucky) - one of the best cheap binos I bought was the Celestron Ultima 8x32 (same bino as the Opticron Adventurer T WP) for 60€ on Amazon. Better coatings than a Nikon AE. Even compared to binos 10x as expensive it's quite good.
chris6
Well-known member
@CharleyBird, that's sort-of what I realised but it was too late to remove more than the most embarassing bits 
@Binocollector, that's just the sort-of thing which prompted me to come out again!
I reckon 'cheap' can be pretty good too, while the top brands could not really be 10x or even 20x better. As everyone says you need to try them out but in the sticks it's hard to find more than a small sample to try out locally.
My last three excursions were to the same, only, local shop where I was first able to try a couple of more modern Zeiss and Swarovski examples against an older Nikon EDG and was not convinced, apart from equal ease with greater fov. I liked one of the available Leicas too, a s/h Trinovid 8x32 BA but, unsurprisingly, focus was a bit creaky after all those years. I asked for a Leica Ultravid Plus to try and made an appointment the following week for that.
They were to phone me if it was not ready but as it turned out they forgot to do it. Anyway I had decided to look at Noctivid too, so asked for that to be got in for the next week again. In the event I was almost ready to swap for the EDG for a change, so it was annoying to find that the slightly stiff/new focus actually had several degrees of free play, which was not immediately obvious.
Out of frustration while waiting I had ordered a Fujifilm KF 8x32 for only £126 through eBay and it turned out even better than remembered, focus being super light and precise. Very sharp and decent fov which did not fall off noticeably towards the edge, which had seemed a little less benign in the clones remembered, so that's the best of them so far. I must have returned quite a few different new examples ordered at a distance and at all prices because of problems with free play in the focus mechanism. Maybe that is not a general obsession but to me it seems quite important, along with resolution/sharpness...
Based on the Fujifilm triumph I next got a Fuji KF 10x42, supposedly as a nice complement to the 8x32, which was very neat and much the same physical size but of different design. Still 'made in Philippines' but without the sharpness and generally charming view. Disappointing but not so much as two examples of otherwise gorgeous Meopta Meostar12x50 which both had probs with focus free play, but at 10x the price!
@Binocollector, that's just the sort-of thing which prompted me to come out again!
I reckon 'cheap' can be pretty good too, while the top brands could not really be 10x or even 20x better. As everyone says you need to try them out but in the sticks it's hard to find more than a small sample to try out locally.
My last three excursions were to the same, only, local shop where I was first able to try a couple of more modern Zeiss and Swarovski examples against an older Nikon EDG and was not convinced, apart from equal ease with greater fov. I liked one of the available Leicas too, a s/h Trinovid 8x32 BA but, unsurprisingly, focus was a bit creaky after all those years. I asked for a Leica Ultravid Plus to try and made an appointment the following week for that.
They were to phone me if it was not ready but as it turned out they forgot to do it. Anyway I had decided to look at Noctivid too, so asked for that to be got in for the next week again. In the event I was almost ready to swap for the EDG for a change, so it was annoying to find that the slightly stiff/new focus actually had several degrees of free play, which was not immediately obvious.
Out of frustration while waiting I had ordered a Fujifilm KF 8x32 for only £126 through eBay and it turned out even better than remembered, focus being super light and precise. Very sharp and decent fov which did not fall off noticeably towards the edge, which had seemed a little less benign in the clones remembered, so that's the best of them so far. I must have returned quite a few different new examples ordered at a distance and at all prices because of problems with free play in the focus mechanism. Maybe that is not a general obsession but to me it seems quite important, along with resolution/sharpness...
Based on the Fujifilm triumph I next got a Fuji KF 10x42, supposedly as a nice complement to the 8x32, which was very neat and much the same physical size but of different design. Still 'made in Philippines' but without the sharpness and generally charming view. Disappointing but not so much as two examples of otherwise gorgeous Meopta Meostar12x50 which both had probs with focus free play, but at 10x the price!
Last edited:
CharleyBird
Well-known member
Chris, I'm not embarrassed to write we have one of these superb-sounding Visionking 8x21, bought to use on the archery field:
Fourteen years old and it's still in mint condition.
Because it's so unusable, so bad in every way😄;
badly named for starters, has a pointless string neck strap, it's pretty impossible to find a stable view without blackouts, and even then any image is extremely poor (can't distinguish arrows).
It's undeniably cheap at £16, and I have to say, fits in your trouser pocket.
After years of learning, advice, and buying a few others, we now have the antithesis of the Visionking, the lovely Leica 7x42 uv+ which cost 80x more 😬
Why pay so much more?
They're not perfect, but are somehow naturally pleasant to hold, easy on the eyes, and built for years of daily use.
Wondering, are you lucky enough to be satisfied with your Fuji bins, or will you be trying the latest Noctovid/SF/NL superbins?
Fourteen years old and it's still in mint condition.
Because it's so unusable, so bad in every way😄;
badly named for starters, has a pointless string neck strap, it's pretty impossible to find a stable view without blackouts, and even then any image is extremely poor (can't distinguish arrows).
It's undeniably cheap at £16, and I have to say, fits in your trouser pocket.
After years of learning, advice, and buying a few others, we now have the antithesis of the Visionking, the lovely Leica 7x42 uv+ which cost 80x more 😬
Why pay so much more?
They're not perfect, but are somehow naturally pleasant to hold, easy on the eyes, and built for years of daily use.
Wondering, are you lucky enough to be satisfied with your Fuji bins, or will you be trying the latest Noctovid/SF/NL superbins?
chris6
Well-known member
Yes I did get to try the Noctivid but it was annoying to find that the slightly stiff/new focus actually had several degrees of free play so decided not to swap, also SF and NL and was impressed by their wide field but not enough to exchange for the older EDG.
You made good points and the UV 7x42 must be very nice, but am still enjoying the fujis anyway; I suppose that's mainly because they are so sharp, but also because they are big enough and still quite light in weight at 510gms with straps & covers.
You made good points and the UV 7x42 must be very nice, but am still enjoying the fujis anyway; I suppose that's mainly because they are so sharp, but also because they are big enough and still quite light in weight at 510gms with straps & covers.
chris6
Well-known member
- and because of the very light and accurate focus action of Fujifilm KF 8x32: Today i was answering a phone call while watching a robin with morsels of food for the young lined up in its beak, to see where it was heading. It flitted all over the place, as robins do, so in the end my attempts were fruitless.
However the light weight, the sharpness, the ease of focus, and the resulting focus snap really did make the attempt perfectly feasible with one hand (I have discounted the 10x42 KF because the example I received was not up to the QC standard of the recent 8x32 or of the three equivalent Sightron clones which I had in the past).
Another thing is that I had a chance to concentrate on checking CA, something which I don't personally notice in normal use. While looking at the usual twigs and Tv aerials I could just sometimes produce it by looking right to the edges but could not do that at all in the rest of the view and the new KF 8x32 was just sharp...
This is very geeky stuff I know but it has never been just one opinion because, since Frank D first started it all, there have been many many others who have seen the light. Another past favourite was RSPB BG.PC/Ranger 8x32 which is apparently still available but at twice the price. I did get one of those in the end but it was misaligned, while four Sightron clones have been fine or perfectly acceptable in that respect and I guess that my Fuji may also be an improved model.
I was still on the hunt when I parted with the other three clones to special friends. Now I have no others (that is special friends who might use them) but have not come across anything comparable. I found 10x or x32 e,g. Nikon HG LX 8x32, Nikon E II 10x35 and Meopta 10x32 uncomfortable when versions 8x42 HG LX was lovely but heavier, EII 8x35 no good with glasses, Meopta 8x32 was ok but not so sharp or comfy, and all of the latter relatively expensive, while the current Fuji KF 8x32 is 'just right'.
However the light weight, the sharpness, the ease of focus, and the resulting focus snap really did make the attempt perfectly feasible with one hand (I have discounted the 10x42 KF because the example I received was not up to the QC standard of the recent 8x32 or of the three equivalent Sightron clones which I had in the past).
Another thing is that I had a chance to concentrate on checking CA, something which I don't personally notice in normal use. While looking at the usual twigs and Tv aerials I could just sometimes produce it by looking right to the edges but could not do that at all in the rest of the view and the new KF 8x32 was just sharp...
This is very geeky stuff I know but it has never been just one opinion because, since Frank D first started it all, there have been many many others who have seen the light. Another past favourite was RSPB BG.PC/Ranger 8x32 which is apparently still available but at twice the price. I did get one of those in the end but it was misaligned, while four Sightron clones have been fine or perfectly acceptable in that respect and I guess that my Fuji may also be an improved model.
I was still on the hunt when I parted with the other three clones to special friends. Now I have no others (that is special friends who might use them
) but have not come across anything comparable. I found 10x or x32 e,g. Nikon HG LX 8x32, Nikon E II 10x35 and Meopta 10x32 uncomfortable when versions 8x42 HG LX was lovely but heavier, EII 8x35 no good with glasses, Meopta 8x32 was ok but not so sharp or comfy, and all of the latter relatively expensive, while the current Fuji KF 8x32 is 'just right'.
Last edited:
edwincjones
Well-known member
Picking out a pair of binoculars is like picking out a spouse
not too cheap, not too expensive, but just right
edj
not too cheap, not too expensive, but just right
edj
chris6
Well-known member
Too 'right' edj
With a bit more practice using the Fuji KF 8x32 it seems it seems significant that there is little to annoy about them. I guess that this lack of distraction leads one to notice and to ruminate about other things, such as depth of field and 'focus snap', both of which help to make things feel easy.
I don't really know about the technicalities but have gathered that d.o.f. is actually determined by the specifications; perhaps it's the magnification? or perhaps it's the size of the objectives? (I guess that it it's down to magnification but please comment). Anyway the Fuji has plenty of leeway in that respect, so that perfect focus only needs a smidge of adjustment between about 50yds and about 150yds (maybe just a slight extra movement than would usually be required for 7x i.m.o.) and for some reason, not understood, it also seems a smaller adjustment than is usual for 8x, while focus might be quicker/more high geared with Fuji. This is pleasant, especially in conjunction with Fuji's very light and exact focus action.
There seems to be doubt about whether 'focus snap' has any proper definition, being subjective. I think that instead this effect would be measurable, or at least calculable, and that it could be found or defined e.g. as the result of the resolution (however enumerated) divided by the degrees of free play in the focus action, divided again by the degree of stiction/stiffness/roughness involved. Resolution/sharpness is clearly very good with the Fujis and there is no free play or roughness, hence the impression of excellent focus snap. This is pleasant, especially in conjunction with Fuji's very light and exact focus action, as well as its lack of distortion until well away from the centre.
I believe that the view with my recent example has a wider area of sharpness than with the same and similar models which were generally lauded in the past, and which I have personally tried and enjoyed. That is because, then, some peripheral fuzziness was fairly obvious, being a minor deterrent. Therefore I think it may have been substantially improved in that respect, so that its nominal 7.5% f.o.v. is now more worthwhile, which makes it still more remarkable.
Of course it would not be so remarkable at a couple of thousand pounds...
Last edited:
Pinewood
New York correspondent
Hello,
At some point the marginal costs of improvement become very expensive. There are many good mid-priced binoculars which are better that the best of thirty years ago. To have everything, wide FOV, suppression of chromatic aberrations, colour fidelity and high contrast in a well built, long lived instrument is going to be expensive.
I have an eighteen year-old Zeiss 8x32FL, bought as a demo, at about US$1200. The cost comes to less than US$6 per month, 20¢ per day. The binocular still delivers a great image and an updated binocular of that quality would cost twice as much today, which would match inflation: about the same cost as the occasional pint at a pub. At my age, a new binocular would last a lifetime, which is an unknown number of years.
Stay safe,
Arthur
At some point the marginal costs of improvement become very expensive. There are many good mid-priced binoculars which are better that the best of thirty years ago. To have everything, wide FOV, suppression of chromatic aberrations, colour fidelity and high contrast in a well built, long lived instrument is going to be expensive.
I have an eighteen year-old Zeiss 8x32FL, bought as a demo, at about US$1200. The cost comes to less than US$6 per month, 20¢ per day. The binocular still delivers a great image and an updated binocular of that quality would cost twice as much today, which would match inflation: about the same cost as the occasional pint at a pub. At my age, a new binocular would last a lifetime, which is an unknown number of years.
Stay safe,
Arthur
Last edited:
chris6
Well-known member
Cheers Arthur, as we say 'down the pub'.
It depends, but judging by Mars bars, or in our case eggs, inflation might be a lot worse than that.
Here a dozen eggs have doubled in price over just two months, if you can find any.
Some say it's BREXIT or COVID or Putin, but maybe it's just bird flu!
