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Yorkshire Birding (8 Viewers)

Anyone who birds the Rotherham area may be interested in the HS2 rail route that was revealed today...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/69015/hs2-arp-lr0-dr-rt-55140_3-0.pdf

Looks like it'll go straight through Orgreave Lakes, and it doesn't look good for Treeton Dyke, Rother Valley CP (especially the Meadowgate Lake nature reserve), Pit House West and Catcliffe Flash. :(

Looks like it will decimate the Wintersett area too - running through Cold Hiendley and from what I hear through Walton Hall area too - a bloody tragedy if they get their way. I am pinning my hopes on the fact that once it gets built to Birmingham they will realise its a total waste of time and money and cancel the rest. Who will be able to afford to use it anyway - it can easily cost over £200 now Leeds - London return - whats it going to cost on the new line - £500 - crazy!!!!!
 
Anyone who birds the Rotherham area may be interested in the HS2 rail route that was revealed today...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/69015/hs2-arp-lr0-dr-rt-55140_3-0.pdf

Looks like it'll go straight through Orgreave Lakes, and it doesn't look good for Treeton Dyke, Rother Valley CP (especially the Meadowgate Lake nature reserve), Pit House West and Catcliffe Flash. :(

that just about covers every place i choose to watch.what is it about this area that seems to attract everything from chinese theme parks to stupid white elephant high speed trains.most of it is reclaimed coal pit sites and is now a valuable area for wildlife in a corridor between the urban sprawls of sheffield and rotherham but it seems the powers that be just want to destroy it and turn the area into a "birmingham" style mass urban area where
sheffield just swallows rotherham.
 
HS2 will narrow the north - south divide so that the tossers darn sarf can piss on us without too much effort and too much risk of a good kicking. Notice that the line doesn't actually run through too many grouse moors, can't upset the money-men can we. Cynical me...never
 
HS2 will narrow the north - south divide so that the tossers darn sarf can piss on us without too much effort and too much risk of a good kicking. Notice that the line doesn't actually run through too many grouse moors, can't upset the money-men can we. Cynical me...never

They keep saying it will help the north,will it f*ck,it will just make London more accessible and so more prosperous
 
Hs2

I'd lay good money that this has about the same chance of being built as we have of an EU referendum, i.e none. Politicians may still be trying to work out the implications of the phrase 'Global Economy', but business leaders are way ahead, and business travel budgets are being cut across the board. Its simply not worth it when you can use Internet technologies instead.
HS2, Heathrow 3 and a Thames estuary aiport are simply not going to be needed.
 
No you're right, it's far better to live in a world where internal flights are the best and cheapest options, burning up vast amounts of fossil fuels and increasing global warming, than investing in new infrastructure to change the way we travel, reduce carbon emissions, and perhaps actually improve local economies. As for the minor nature reserves in south yorks it runs through, surely it's better to deal with a bit of disturbance than the continual flooding and climate change which is what we're headed for now. As for the £500 rail fare, with your ability to predict the state of the economy in 20 odd years time, maybe you should run for chancellor in the next gvt Mr.Bullfinch? Typical reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded rubbish.
 
Just sent in the details from the ring of a dead waxwing I found this morning. I'd been chuffed to see three on sunday when going to the gym and sad to see one dead in the same place today.
 
Yeh - maybe we can cover some more of our minor nature reserves with wind farms too - they are going to be efficient and cost effective aren't they and they will also reduce carbon footprint ?
 
No you're right, it's far better to live in a world where internal flights are the best and cheapest options, burning up vast amounts of fossil fuels and increasing global warming, than investing in new infrastructure to change the way we travel, reduce carbon emissions, and perhaps actually improve local economies. As for the minor nature reserves in south yorks it runs through, surely it's better to deal with a bit of disturbance than the continual flooding and climate change which is what we're headed for now. As for the £500 rail fare, with your ability to predict the state of the economy in 20 odd years time, maybe you should run for chancellor in the next gvt Mr.Bullfinch? Typical reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded rubbish.

Ouch. Have to say I agree with most of that though. As long as rail fares dont increase dramatically with the investment im all for it (allbeit with a few minor amendments to the route but you cant please everyone).

I know its a pain in terms of disruption during construction, but a local NR I visit has a train line bordering the site and the diversity of species present isn't affected by the trainline, nor are the birds flushed when the train rumbles through.
 
No you're right, it's far better to live in a world where internal flights are the best and cheapest options, burning up vast amounts of fossil fuels and increasing global warming, than investing in new infrastructure to change the way we travel, reduce carbon emissions, and perhaps actually improve local economies. As for the minor nature reserves in south yorks it runs through, surely it's better to deal with a bit of disturbance than the continual flooding and climate change which is what we're headed for now. As for the £500 rail fare, with your ability to predict the state of the economy in 20 odd years time, maybe you should run for chancellor in the next gvt Mr.Bullfinch? Typical reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded rubbish.

Ollie - these "minor nature reserves" are hardly Minsmere, but they are some of the most bird-rich areas in South Yorkshire. They are also important wildlife corridors through a urbanised landscape, providing pitstops for migrant birds and habitat for breeding birds. The reserves will not win prizes for beauty, and are not renowned for rare breeding species (although I can think of a couple of S1s), but they not only provide habitats for nature to reclaim post-industrial areas, but green spaces for people in less well off areas. And the very people who live in these areas, and will see these spaces destroyed (along with, in some instances, their houses, business and amenities) are often the people least likely to be swanning backwards and forwards to London doing business on a high speed train.

While I appreciate I'd much prefer rail travel to air travel, is it than important to create this at the expense of all the SSSIs, ancient woodland and other wildlife corridors that it's going to destroy on the way? I will miss some of the South Yorkshire sites that may be lost, but I also appreciate that a couple of wildlife-rich brownfield sites on the outskirts of Rotherham are nothing compared to some of the losses that will be felt by wildlife further down the route.

If I get the right train I can get to London in just over two hours. I fail to see how shaving an hour off this journey is worth carving the country up for. It does gall me a little bit that if you have 33 billion quid to spend on making the North better, the best way people can think of is to simply make it so we can leave it quicker.

Fighting climate change is important, but destroying networks of small nature reserves that conservationists have so much spent time and money creating seems counterproductive. Technology means people don't need to be physically in the same room any more to deal with each other, and it's changing the corporate mindset that we have to jet about all over the place to make business happen that we need to work on, not an expensive scar down the country that no-one can currently give a straight answer on whether or not ordinary people can even afford to travel on it.
 
"Ollie - these "minor nature reserves" are hardly Minsmere, but they are some of the most bird-rich areas in South Yorkshire. They are also important wildlife corridors through a urbanised landscape, providing pitstops for migrant birds and habitat for breeding birds. The reserves will not win prizes for beauty, and are not renowned for rare breeding species (although I can think of a couple of S1s), but they not only provide habitats for nature to reclaim post-industrial areas, but green spaces for people in less well off areas. And the very people who live in these areas, and will see these spaces destroyed (along with, in some instances, their houses, business and amenities) are often the people least likely to be swanning backwards and forwards to London doing business on a high speed train."


But for most of these sites, and species effected, it will be relatively easy to create new habitats and offset disturbance. The largest breeding populations of house sparrow where I used to live always used to be along railway lines, presumably due to lack of human disturbance- so it might even create some benefits. They are not planning on destroying any sites that are truly irreplaceable, or hold hugely significant numbers.

As for which people are most likely to be using them, that is necessarily the case for all peices of national infrastructure. Everyone in society has to pay some costs, as well as gaining the benefits of being in that society (I'm not saying this is anywhere near perfect or equitable in this country). This argument could be equally used against all and any future largescale developments.


"While I appreciate I'd much prefer rail travel to air travel, is it than important to create this at the expense of all the SSSIs, ancient woodland and other wildlife corridors that it's going to destroy on the way? I will miss some of the South Yorkshire sites that may be lost, but I also appreciate that a couple of wildlife-rich brownfield sites on the outskirts of Rotherham are nothing compared to some of the losses that will be felt by wildlife further down the route."

But these sites, and the wildlife within them, are going to be far more adversely affected by global warming in the long term. Whilst I agree that there are some problems (sometimes fairly serious) with HS2/3, windfarms, various other green initiatives, isn't it far worse for wildlife if we turn every 'green' initiative in to such a political no-go zone that no party ever dares attempt any of them. Is it not far better for people such as ourselves who should be at the forefront of this, when we can see the effects on birds and wildlife ourselves quite easily, to overlook some short term problems/mistakes/setbacks in order to allow momentum to build behind a proper program to tackle global warming?

"If I get the right train I can get to London in just over two hours. I fail to see how shaving an hour off this journey is worth carving the country up for. It does gall me a little bit that if you have 33 billion quid to spend on making the North better, the best way people can think of is to simply make it so we can leave it quicker."

I hadn't realise the trains were only running one way?!? As someone who has moved from the South to the North, I'm far from convinced that this is how it will necessarily work.



"Fighting climate change is important, but destroying networks of small nature reserves that conservationists have so much spent time and money creating seems counterproductive. Technology means people don't need to be physically in the same room any more to deal with each other, and it's changing the corporate mindset that we have to jet about all over the place to make business happen that we need to work on, not an expensive scar down the country that no-one can currently give a straight answer on whether or not ordinary people can even afford to travel on it."

I agree in an ideal world this would be the case, especially if we were discussing a new airport or similar. But I don't think we will rule out the need for transport in the foreseeable future (and that time will always be at a premium), and given that, this is surely a big step in the right direction. Support from conservation groups would not only mean that further green projects would not only be more likely to go ahead, but that they would have more influence on ensuring mitigation for this project and future projects.
 
But for most of these sites, and species effected, it will be relatively easy to create new habitats and offset disturbance. The largest breeding populations of house sparrow where I used to live always used to be along railway lines, presumably due to lack of human disturbance- so it might even create some benefits. They are not planning on destroying any sites that are truly irreplaceable, or hold hugely significant numbers.

Agreed in part - this thing is going to happen, and rather than waving our fists at it opposing it we need to lobby those with the power to create new habitats to offset any losses. That's a fight that's got some chance to be won (although suddenly the cost-cutting and austerity cards will likely be played).

As for which people are most likely to be using them, that is necessarily the case for all peices of national infrastructure. Everyone in society has to pay some costs, as well as gaining the benefits of being in that society (I'm not saying this is anywhere near perfect or equitable in this country). This argument could be equally used against all and any future largescale developments.

It is of course short-sighted to say the only people to benefit from this are the people who are actually going to be sat on the train. But if your house is knocked down to make way for a railway line you're never going to be able afford to travel on (speculation, but at the moment who knows?) it still rankles.

But these sites, and the wildlife within them, are going to be far more adversely affected by global warming in the long term. Whilst I agree that there are some problems (sometimes fairly serious) with HS2/3, windfarms, various other green initiatives, isn't it far worse for wildlife if we turn every 'green' initiative in to such a political no-go zone that no party ever dares attempt any of them. Is it not far better for people such as ourselves who should be at the forefront of this, when we can see the effects on birds and wildlife ourselves quite easily, to overlook some short term problems/mistakes/setbacks in order to allow momentum to build behind a proper program to tackle global warming?

This isn't a "green initiative". It's a business initiative that has some green benefit.

I hadn't realise the trains were only running one way?!? As someone who has moved from the South to the North, I'm far from convinced that this is how it will necessarily work.

There was a level of facetiousness to my post there. But my point is that 33 billion could go a long way to improve the north beyond just linking it with the capital.

I agree in an ideal world this would be the case, especially if we were discussing a new airport or similar. But I don't think we will rule out the need for transport in the foreseeable future (and that time will always be at a premium), and given that, this is surely a big step in the right direction. Support from conservation groups would not only mean that further green projects would not only be more likely to go ahead, but that they would have more influence on ensuring mitigation for this project and future projects.

Again, I don't see this as a "green initiative".

It's happening. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. But what we need to do is lobby to make sure the environmental impact is as low as possible, which I'm yet to be convinced by. That's my main point, rather than it's a horrible thing that must never ever happen - I'm not convinced by its need, but that's up to me.

And people are allowed to mourn the loss of favourite sites and local wildlife, without being browbeaten and made to feel stupid because it's for the "greater good".

Also it has been said the carbon-saving nature of the line has been over-egged, for laziness I'll just post this from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2#Carbon_emissions)... (I'll admit it seems like a biased selection of links)

In 2007, the DfT commissioned a report, Estimated Carbon Impact of a New North South Line, from Booz Allen Hamilton to investigate the likely overall carbon impact associated with the construction and operation of a new rail line to either Manchester or Scotland including the extent of carbon reduction or increase from population shift to rail use, and the comparison with the case in which no new high-speed lines were built.[169] The report concluded that there was no net carbon benefit in the foreseeable future taking only the route to Manchester. Additional carbon from building a new rail route would be larger in the first ten years at least than a model were no new rail line was built.[170]
The High Speed Rail Command paper published in March 2010 stated that the project was likely to be roughly carbon neutral.[171]
The Eddington Report cautioned against the common argument of modal shift from aviation to high-speed rail as a carbon-emissions benefit, since only 1.2% of UK carbon emissions are due to domestic commercial aviation, and since rail transportation energy efficiency is reduced as speed increases.[172]
The Government White Paper Delivering a Sustainable Railway states trains that travel at a speed of 220 miles per hour (350 km/h) currently use 90% more energy than at 125 miles per hour (201 km/h);[citation needed] which results in carbon emissions for a London to Edinburgh journey of approximately 14 kilograms (31 lb) per passenger for high speed rail compared to 7 kilograms (15 lb) per passenger for conventional rail. Air travel uses 26 kilograms (57 lb) per passenger for the same journey. The paper questioned the value for money of high speed rail as a method of reducing carbon emissions, but noted that with a switch to carbon-free or neutral energy production the case becomes much more favourable.[173]
The House of Commons Transport Select Committee Report in November 2011 (paragraph 77) concluded that the Government's claim that HS2 would have substantial carbon reduction benefits did not stand up to scrutiny. At best, the Select Committee found, HS2 could make a small contribution to the Government’s carbon-reduction targets. However this was dependant on the government making rapid progress on reducing carbon emissions from UK electricity generation.[32]

I'd be interested on your thoughts on those points.
 
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No you're right, it's far better to live in a world where internal flights are the best and cheapest options, burning up vast amounts of fossil fuels and increasing global warming, than investing in new infrastructure to change the way we travel, reduce carbon emissions, and perhaps actually improve local economies. As for the minor nature reserves in south yorks it runs through, surely it's better to deal with a bit of disturbance than the continual flooding and climate change which is what we're headed for now. As for the £500 rail fare, with your ability to predict the state of the economy in 20 odd years time, maybe you should run for chancellor in the next gvt Mr.Bullfinch? Typical reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded rubbish.

So whats the point in a new railway link to reduce our emmisions if we then continue to breed/import people so that in the forseeable future we will need both the railway and the flights to cope. Short sighted is the unrealistic unsustainable growth growth growth attitude of our economists and politicians and this railway is nothing more than a vain hope to achieve this. Time to address the real problem and get the population to a level that can co-exist with it's environment and improve living standards through technology instead of financial gain.
 
Whilst on my way to work and passing the Lin Pac factory in Featherstone, I notice a sign for Mill Pond Meadow nature reserve, anyone been and is it any good?

Dave.
 
Whilst on my way to work and passing the Lin Pac factory in Featherstone, I notice a sign for Mill Pond Meadow nature reserve, anyone been and is it any good?

Dave.

Hia Dave,
This reserve was established 2yrs ago by the WMDC and is the field immediately behind the F/stone Lions playing field. It's official access is from Huntwick Lane, opp. the LinPac. There is no C.Park but an unofficial access via the dog bomb walk from the housing area off Wentworth Road offers road parking there.
The reserve was made much to the chagrin of the Lions because the land was promised them for further playing fields. It has a couple of benches and a circular track. It does have Common Spotted and Northern Marsh Orchid in late Spring, but beware of the dog bombs....:eek!:
It gets it's name, Mill Pond, from a Mill that was there (behind the short terrace on the main A645) and ....had a pond. There was also a smaller roadside pond right where the filling station is now....
It was where, and other local places, in the 60's, I laiked out as a kid....The pond was full of fish and had Water Vole, Daubentons and Pipistrelle Bats and loads of other birds including Litttle Owl that nested in the old Mill buildings. It had long since closed and was in ruins but it really was an exceptional local place that still evokes fond memories of adventures that kids nowadays will, unfortunately, never achieve.....
Cheers Joe
 
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No you're right, it's far better to live in a world where internal flights are the best and cheapest options, burning up vast amounts of fossil fuels and increasing global warming, than investing in new infrastructure to change the way we travel, reduce carbon emissions, and perhaps actually improve local economies. As for the minor nature reserves in south yorks it runs through, surely it's better to deal with a bit of disturbance than the continual flooding and climate change which is what we're headed for now. As for the £500 rail fare, with your ability to predict the state of the economy in 20 odd years time, maybe you should run for chancellor in the next gvt Mr.Bullfinch? Typical reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded rubbish.

wow,minor nature reserves in south yorks,typical,reactionary,short sighted,small -minded rubbish,it could almost be posh boy cameron coming out with these qoutes.Why not add a few more such as,'why don't them silly northern b**tards just shut up,don't they realise they will now be able to get away from their little pit village and take their 12 kids to london to find work,that's if they can afford it (tee hee) on there little piddly wage.If they do complain we can always say it will help the enviroment that always shuts them up.
Europe have had their 'fast' trains 20 yrs or more so by the time we get ours (if it's ever built) in my mind it will be 40 yrs old technology,i can't see that being very green by then.
 
No you're right, it's far better to live in a world where internal flights are the best and cheapest options, burning up vast amounts of fossil fuels and increasing global warming, than investing in new infrastructure to change the way we travel, reduce carbon emissions, and perhaps actually improve local economies. As for the minor nature reserves in south yorks it runs through, surely it's better to deal with a bit of disturbance than the continual flooding and climate change which is what we're headed for now. As for the £500 rail fare, with your ability to predict the state of the economy in 20 odd years time, maybe you should run for chancellor in the next gvt Mr.Bullfinch? Typical reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded rubbish.

Ollie, I am very sorry that upon hearing the route of HS 2 that I was a little upset that the place I spend a lot of time birdwatching was to be dug up. How dare I think about myself for a passing moment. I use public transport 5 days a week and most of my travel for birdwatching is done on a push bike. I try and do my bit so dont lecture me. As for the fares - I know how much it currently costs, its not going to decrease in the future is it. This will be my last post on this subject as I really cant be bothered. No wonder hardly anyone posts on here anymore.
 

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