like the Porsche 911 or a fine cigar,
there is the pride of ownership
edj
Binoculars are only a tool, not my identity.
like the Porsche 911 or a fine cigar,
there is the pride of ownership
edj
The Toric Tract is a GREAT $600 binocular. Maybe can't beat it for the money. The Maven 8X42 and 9X45 are both a step up IMO and are great binoculars for the money. The Zeiss Conquest HD is right there as well with even better specs. But when you add all the pieces together they're no Swarovision or SF.
When I was just starting out in photography I remember a letter sent in to a photo magazine. This guy wanted to know the best place to buy used Nikon cameras because he wanted to 'wear one' (yes 'wear', not carry or use) on holiday and he didn't have the time to use one so much that it would acquire that worn used-by-a-seasoned-photographer's look. Now there was a guy who cared about 'alpha' status and the look that carrying an alpha camera gave him.
Since birders and nature observers and optics enthusiasts are human its likely that among our ranks will be examples of every attitude towards our optics including like the one illustrated above.
But I wouldn't want to lable all alpha-lovers as deluded not least because I am one.
And the 911 stuck in traffic may not get to the destination any faster than the Camry but it will be a different experience. You can say this is not a practical difference but this argument carries no more weight than someone else's who says they love driving to work in their Porsche because they love the experience. Me? I drive a lowly Skoda and get stuck in traffic jams too but there are pleasures to be had like arriving at a crossroads about 5 miles from my house at the right speed to shift gears from 4th to 2nd as I turn left up a hill and accelerate smoothly up it and all without my passenger's head nodding forwards when slowing or backwards when accelerating. The point of this is that the same manoeuvre will be a different experience in a Porsche and the driver can derive a legitimate pleasure from this. I'm sure the Camry driver can too.
When I bought my early Swaro EL 8.5x42 I loved the feel of its tubes and armour and the way my hand rested with my little finger on the bridge at the objectives, as I hiked across the hills of Scotland with no audience to pose for. And I love the feel and balance of my Zeiss SFs and the stunning field of view. But I also enjoy the feel and focusing speed of a Conquest and the fun of Terra or the precision of a Meopta or Kowa.
There is pleasure in use, and as edj remarks, pleasure in ownership and all of this applies just as much to alphas as other bins and that is before we start arguing about optical performance.
Maybe you don't consider such pleasures as 'practical differences' and if that is so then its a shame because you are missing something really nice.
Lee
Lee,
No, very much to the contrary!!! I agree almost entirely with you. I believe that there are "alpha" objects and experiences and that they may well be worth the price for those who can genuinely use or experience the difference.
We may differ in this - the extent to which most people would actually experience/use the difference and their real ability to perceive the quality of the difference in actual use.
The pleasure of your Skoda is real!!! If somehow we could blind people to what they were driving so they only experienced the sensation of the drive, how many would feel the sensation of a 911 as "better" as opposed to "different"? Particularly on the NJ Turnpike? Of those who say "better", how many will say $100K better?
So I think I'm very close to your thinking on this. What's the real experience I'm going to have and how often will I have it? But the cynic(?) in me thinks that's a very hard question to answer. I've lived in California wine country now for a long time. Most people can distinguish a genuine $10 from a genuine $50 wine. Maybe one or two people in a hundred can distinguish between a $50 and $250 bottle. Unless you show the labels first. Then everybody's an expert! But I wonder what they're really buying when they order the $250 label.
Very best
Jerry
I'm not comparing their binoculars. I am comparing their business models and what happened to them. You still need plenty of seed money to go into and stay in a businesses like this which competes with huge corporations that make binoculars essentially as a sideline.
You had better be good at it.
They aren't the same business models either. I assume you're well aware that Tract and Maven glass is not offered by retailers, but direct to consumer. This is nothing like Bushnell or Zen Ray, who use retailers and direct sales.
Grape juice.Lee,
No, very much to the contrary!!! I agree almost entirely with you. I believe that there are "alpha" objects and experiences and that they may well be worth the price for those who can genuinely use or experience the difference.
We may differ in this - the extent to which most people would actually experience/use the difference and their real ability to perceive the quality of the difference in actual use.
The pleasure of your Skoda is real!!! If somehow we could blind people to what they were driving so they only experienced the sensation of the drive, how many would feel the sensation of a 911 as "better" as opposed to "different"? Particularly on the NJ Turnpike? Of those who say "better", how many will say $100K better?
So I think I'm very close to your thinking on this. What's the real experience I'm going to have and how often will I have it? But the cynic(?) in me thinks that's a very hard question to answer. I've lived in California wine country now for a long time. Most people can distinguish a genuine $10 from a genuine $50 wine. Maybe one or two people in a hundred can distinguish between a $50 and $250 bottle. Unless you show the labels first. Then everybody's an expert! But I wonder what the label experts are really buying when they pay the extra $200.
Very best
Jerry
The only news here is that Dennis is ditching his Swaros...
I have had quite a few alpha level binoculars and generally have been satisfied with them although lately I have had a LOT of problems with the focus on Swarovski's being sticky. This frustrating problem has led me to search out other alternatives. I have tried different mid-priced binoculars in the past but they have never totally satisfied me because of different issues. At the urging of Gjraider and Steve I decided to try the Tract Toric 8x42 and the Maven B.2 9x45 as a replacement for my Swarovski's. I was totally blown away by both the Trac and the Maven. These binoculars are less than 1/2 the price of the alpha's and after using them both I can see NO reason to spend $2000.00 anymore on a pair of binoculars. Overall, I am more satisfied with these two binoculars than I ever was with my alpha's. Tract has quickly sold out their inventory so there is obviously a pent up demand for a binocular at the $650.00 price point that rivals most of the alpha level binoculars out there. I am predicting that once more people try these direct to the consumer binoculars the alpha binocular as we know it well be dead.
"Though many of the above listed binoculars are FINE binoculars....many lack refinement, heritage, reputation, state of the art specs, superior fit/finish, company support, on-going r&d, proper accessories, and state of the art optics/coatings/innovations....to name a few."I for one don't see it happening. Not to be short-changing or undermining other optic brands or other options but I think it is just wishful thinking for some brands and some consumers.
Though many of the above listed binoculars are FINE binoculars....many lack refinement, heritage, reputation, state of the art specs, superior fit/finish, company support, on-going r&d, proper accessories, and state of the art optics/coatings/innovations....to name a few.
MOST of the above listed binoculars are a better BUY than the "alpha' brands/models....a BARGAIN even. But to state that they are the EQUIVALENT of current state of the art binoculars?...ain't happening. Now to say binocular "A" has a smoother focus than alpha "A," SURE, I'll buy that. But to say it's a better binocular....that I don't buy.
The Toric Tract is a GREAT $600 binocular. Maybe can't beat it for the money. The Maven 8X42 and 9X45 are both a step up IMO and are great binoculars for the money. The Zeiss Conquest HD is right there as well with even better specs. But when you add all the pieces together they're no Swarovision or SF.
Right on Paddy7. You know where I am coming from!Now this is interesting.....
For some time, i took great delight in walking about with Vanguard Endeavor EDIIs in the company of alpha-owners - not missing anything, and getting some admiring comments when they looked through them. I got quite smug about it - i'd done the research, tried a few pairs of all prices, and realised i was missing nothing with the Vanguards other than a few metres of FOV. I also might not weep bitter tears if they tumbled into 6 feet of dyke-water.
I got to the point of almost inverse-snobbery, when i realised there were some fairly poor birders with £2500 of glass round their neck.
Punk birding, i thought of it....
Of course, they could speak of R&D costs, build-quality, reliability, after sales etc but i cared not for that talk. At the price i'd paid, i could probably just replace them if anything went wrong (which it hasn't....)
What i realised was that many birders actually aren't as knowledgeable about optics as the fine contributors to this forum, and buy because such-and-such make is 'the best' or because all the other top guys seem to wear them....
So when they make the purchase, they may need persuading that anything is actually a fault with their intended new buy - not looking cheaper and examining what might be good, or making any balanced judgement based on their needs.
And so - with their 'state-of-the-art' bins, they (in their own perception) have joined the elite of birders.
This, of course, might inspire them to get more serious, go out more (due to the investment) and actually become much, much better. They may also feel they will be taken more seriously by others in the community.
Thus, the alpha / non-alpha issue moves from being a logical, scientific, economic issue to one of psychology, confidence, self-image, seriousness etc.
So, going back to the opening of this post, the use of bins other than alphas may just indicate that someone has done their homework, knows what they need for what they do and has sufficient self-confidence (or really doesn't care what others think) to wear them with pride and just get out there....
Good insight. That really explains some people's thinking.Hello Chuck,
I admire your posts and always read them with respect and consideration. So please, please don't take this reply as directed to you personally. It's just that your thoughtful (and true - as far as they go) comments have made me twitch a little. So here goes!
After a certain point, to the vast,vast majority of users - it doesn't matter that the Swarovski is "better" because the extra quality doesn't make any practical difference in actual use. A Porsche 911 is inarguably a "better" quality auto than a Toyota Camry. But Monday morning at 8:30 on the New Jersey Turnpike - it doesn't matter (except for the conspicuous display of social status). You're going to get to the same place at the same time in the same comfort in either vehicle.
Undoubtedly we can imagine situations where the 911 will make a difference. The Camry will be slower through the crucial S turns at Le Mans. So we can buy, test and compare and find real differences - but they're differences without a difference to almost all real users in real situations.
So it's easy to thump Dennis on a literal level. Of course many "alphas" have something extra. The extras may even be something that a few special people will notice/need in their unique circumstances. But, if we're honest with ourselves, I suspect we've fallen into one of the special traps of modern commerce. We spend a lot of extra money buying things we don't really need in order to make ourselves or others feel like we're "alpha" people. Meanwhile, we're waiting for traffic to move just like everybody else - but down a $100k compared to the Camry driver behind us.
If this is true then "alphas" will never die. Not because they have something special that can never be replicated - but because we desperately want to show in someway that we're something special that can't be replaced. I'm not sure we can actually buy that feeling. But I am absolutely certain there will always be people offering to sell it.
Very best regards,
Jerry
Can you REALLY see much difference between a Maven and a Swarovski? How many %? 1,2,or 3%? Is it really worth it out in the real world?The only thing I would add to Chuck's excellent post above is this:
I own many alphas, along with a Toric and many other very good brands of "non-alphas". I have used Mavens when at the World Birding Center in south TX. If one cannot see the superior view that the alphas provide over a Toric or Maven or Razor or Conquest HD or Trinovid, then I would agree that the alphas are not worth the money. However, my vision is good enough for me to easily see the difference between an alpha and the others, and I am certainly willing and able to pay for that difference.
If one thinks a Toric or a Maven is just as good as an alpha, then good for them. I'm sure they will be happy with the money they saved, along with the happiness their bino's view provides. Certainly something like a Toric or Maven makes more sense for most people. For me however - I will stick to the best view I can buy, since I can still make use of that extra level of performance. Given that there are lots of people out there like me that have no problem seeing, using, and affording that extra level of performance, there will be no "death of the alpha" any time soon..........
The Swaro's are long gone. There are none on Ebay.And promote them on Ebay as the best of the best everB
Jan
With the Maven's and Tract's I am just as proud as if I owned an alpha. In fact more so. I am proud that I own a binocular that performs , as well as, one costing 2x as much.like the Porsche 911 or a fine cigar,
there is the pride of ownership
edj
But as long as Tract and Maven keep up with the alpha level technology what is the advantage in buying an alpha?Dennis,
You weren't paying attention!
I wasn't comparing the binoculars of David Bushnell's time with the binoculars of Tract's and Maven's time. How did you miss that?
I was pointing out that middle men like Tract and Maven have been around for 50 years or more having binoculars made to their specifications and selling them under their own names.
Bushnell was selling binoculars at a time when all of the new improvements on optics that we are used to had not been invented and in use on the Alphas of that time!
Maven and Tract are taking advantage of these new improvements. They would be idiots if they did not! They certainly did not invent them.
It is all part of the continuing history of binoculars.
Bob