Can that bird be considered "wild"? (1 Viewer)

[Farnboro John]

Not true. White storks at Knepp have bred and raised chicks, which is a first step towards a self-sustaining population. You may disagree and complain that so and so, but that is exactly how the WTE population on Rhum started off.
As for the great bustards, The UK Great Bustard Population - Great Bustard Group. Self-sustaining.

Exactly, a first step. Not by any means there yet, so not by any means approaching Cat C.

As for the Great Bustards, those are not categorised Cat C by BOURC because what the Great Bustard Group says is not in fact the case, the birds are nowhere near achieving self-sustainment. They try to conflate nests and population (and suggest that in the very restricted area in which the bustards exist, they have missed additional nests of a turkey-sized open-ground nester). How many nests succeed each year, and is there general success or just a couple of able pairs camouflaging general failure?

By their own figures they have not yet seen an increase of one third in the population (from 75 to "a figure close to 100") how close? If it was one or two birds off one would expect them to say so: the fact that they don't makes one suspect that "close" actually means "not that close".

It may be one to watch. I suspect it will die out before long as large numbers of the introduced birds reach old age and fall to that or local predators without achieving sufficient recruitment to the population through breeding.

John

 

[condor1992]

Completely off topic but: Anyone else noticed the numbers stated by Great Bustard Group don’t add up?

They say they stopped importing eggs after 2019 and since then the population went from 75 to close to 100. Also they state one third of the population is wild bred at Wiltshire.
Let‘s say the number of birds is currently 95 (around 100). This means at least 20 birds were born in 2020 or later and are alive. So the maximum number of wild bred birds born before 2020 which are still living is 13 around (plus or minus a few because they say „approximately“ a third). For a reintroduction starting in 2004 the number of living wild bred birds born before 2020 seems astonishingly little compared to the number of bustards born after 2019.
Why would the success rate for breeding and survival be that much higher since 2019? Maybe I misunderstood something but for me it looks like the numbers just don’t add up.

The thing with this reintroduction is I have heard it was plagued with massive difficulties. I heard their first attempt involved bustards from Saratov which had a tendency to migrate, which resulted in them approaching the Spanish authorities instead. The first part of the project may be the reason why this is often derided as a failed attempt.
Of course, the larger a population, the better the breeding successes, so the more birds we have, the more breeding we have. Also, don't forget bustards need time to grow to maturity- that is 2-3 years for females, and 5-6 years for females. The population started off very young and gradually matured- it wasn't like importing wild birds. By the time all of that delay is added up and the growth of the population by that point considered, it doesn't surprise me that these numbers are reported like so. And I expect these numbers to get even more different as time goes on, more and more chicks hatch and grow up.

 

[condor1992]

Exactly, a first step. Not by any means there yet, so not by any means approaching Cat C.

As for the Great Bustards, those are not categorised Cat C by BOURC because what the Great Bustard Group says is not in fact the case, the birds are nowhere near achieving self-sustainment. They try to conflate nests and population (and suggest that in the very restricted area in which the bustards exist, they have missed additional nests of a turkey-sized open-ground nester). How many nests succeed each year, and is there general success or just a couple of able pairs camouflaging general failure?

By their own figures they have not yet seen an increase of one third in the population (from 75 to "a figure close to 100") how close? If it was one or two birds off one would expect them to say so: the fact that they don't makes one suspect that "close" actually means "not that close".

It may be one to watch. I suspect it will die out before long as large numbers of the introduced birds reach old age and fall to that or local predators without achieving sufficient recruitment to the population through breeding.

John

We'll see, won't we?
In regards to the Great Bustard Group, I am aware a lot of people do not accept that reintroduction, including BOURC. However, BOURC is not infallible and it then becomes claims vs claims. The GBG says one thing, and the BOURC says another thing. However, others disagree.
The situation reminds me of bald ibis in Spain, except that is even stranger. The ibises are free-flying, free-feeding, nest all the time and have a self-sustaining population. Almost no European red list has any mention of that Spanish population, however I, and a ton of other very experienced birdwatchers, do not hesitate ticking it as a European bird. I guess these things just take time.
If the Dalmatian pelican was reintroduced tomorrow, I suspected BOURC wouldn't consider it as a population for 30 years or so, even if breeding was reliably recorded.
I would also avoid grabbing at words. The population is showing very promising signs of rising and there is of course always difficulty with ascertaining the size of a population which lives on MoD land

 

[Farnboro John]

We'll see, won't we?
In regards to the Great Bustard Group, I am aware a lot of people do not accept that reintroduction, including BOURC. However, BOURC is not infallible and it then becomes claims vs claims. The GBG says one thing, and the BOURC says another thing. However, others disagree.
The situation reminds me of bald ibis in Spain, except that is even stranger. The ibises are free-flying, free-feeding, nest all the time and have a self-sustaining population. Almost no European red list has any mention of that Spanish population, however I, and a ton of other very experienced birdwatchers, do not hesitate ticking it as a European bird. I guess these things just take time.
If the Dalmatian pelican was reintroduced tomorrow, I suspected BOURC wouldn't consider it as a population for 30 years or so, even if breeding was reliably recorded.
I would also avoid grabbing at words. The population is showing very promising signs of rising and there is of course always difficulty with ascertaining the size of a population which lives on MoD land

Actually MOD has a very active scientific conservation group as well as local effort on e.g. ringing and for the Great Bustard Group to function at all on SPTA it must have co-operation from MOD.

Accession to Cat C requires more than a few successful nests, there has to be demonstrated multi-generation sustained success without further introduction. Of course this takes time but it is a necessary precursor to recategorisation and must be verified properly, not by optimistic press release from parties with a vested interest in claiming success.

John

 

[condor1992]

Getting there, it seems. As you say, these things take time

Great British bustards

Since its formation in 1997, the Great Bustard Group has come a long way, but not without ups and downs. Ed Stubbs interviewed the man behind the scheme and find out how far off a self-sustaining population of British Great Bustards is.

www.birdguides.com

 

[Farnboro John]

Getting there, it seems. As you say, these things take time

Great British bustards

Since its formation in 1997, the Great Bustard Group has come a long way, but not without ups and downs. Ed Stubbs interviewed the man behind the scheme and find out how far off a self-sustaining population of British Great Bustards is.

www.birdguides.com

They are, according to this article, indulging in interference at a level that precludes any claim to be self-sustaining: without it the project's productivity would be substantially less and unless it stops they are going nowhere.

John

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

Given white stork has been officially reintroduced, much as great bustard, I would tick them on my list as British birds

I’m not totally sure that either were officially sanctioned. Maybe you have links to that? I was under the impression that these, and other species, not just birds, nowadays, are just released willy-nill. I think I might stick some Golden Pheasants in my back garden for the hell of it, I’m pretty well in their old range.

 

[condor1992]

I’m not totally sure that either were officially sanctioned. Maybe you have links to that? I was under the impression that these, and other species, not just birds, nowadays, are just released willy-nill. I think I might stick some Golden Pheasants in my back garden for the hell of it, I’m pretty well in their old range.

Perfectly sanctioned, you can find details for both under White Stork project and Great Bustard Group. Considering the amount of hell the beaver went through, and the 'nausea-reflex' I have known some birdwatchers to have about reintroductions (eg the Great Crane Project was boycotted by some purists), if that was unsanctioned, things would be looking a lot different right now
For Great Bustard, based on the feasibility study, in 2003, DEFRA issued a 10-year trial-licence to release Great Bustards in the UK. Sanctioned.
For white stork, read here FAQ — White Stork Project. Also sanctioned.
But if I'm honest, and I'm going to be extremely unpopular for saying this, this madness needs to end. 'Officially sanctioned' has now in some ways put a stranglehold on some British populations. If only a few rich landowners were enough to derail a white-tailed eagle project in Norfolk, which had enormous backing, then 'officially sanctioned' does not carry any more meaning to me anymore than an empty sheet of paper.

 

[condor1992]

They are, according to this article, indulging in interference at a level that precludes any claim to be self-sustaining: without it the project's productivity would be substantially less and unless it stops they are going nowhere.

John

Should we then exclude the entire population of crested ibis from being tickable as well? Some birds need intensive measures for a population to build up, and that includes a lot of cranes, Spix's macaw, Hawaiian crow and some other birds. A lot of sources have reported the population as almost certainly self-sustaining. That's good enough for me, even if it does require management, which is not completely unexpected if a bird was wiped out and now is in the process of being brought back. and if breeding is taking place, then the population is certainly self-sustaining in my eyes

 

[Farnboro John]

Should we then exclude the entire population of crested ibis from being tickable as well? Some birds need intensive measures for a population to build up, and that includes a lot of cranes, Spix's macaw, Hawaiian crow and some other birds. A lot of sources have reported the population as almost certainly self-sustaining. That's good enough for me, even if it does require management, which is not completely unexpected if a bird was wiped out and now is in the process of being brought back. and if breeding is taking place, then the population is certainly self-sustaining in my eyes

If it's having support it's being sustained, not self-sustaining. It's not difficult.

John

 

[condor1992]

Not necessarily. The sort of management which would preclude 'self-sustaining' involves eg taking eggs from nests and incubating them. The project does do that, but only out of necessity, otherwise the nests and eggs will simply be destroyed when harvesting starts. It happens in Spain with Montagu's harriers in crop fields as well.
"We place the highest value on wild nests and don't really want to interfere."
As I stated, the population is growing, and multiple sources are asserting it is self-sustaining or on the verge of doing so. And I agree with them. I don't need 'confirmation' from the BOU to say that, which also asserts the bustard is not a native species.

 

[Butty]

Not necessarily. The sort of management which would preclude 'self-sustaining' involves eg taking eggs from nests and incubating them. The project does do that

The twists and turns (and failures) of your rationale, and your misrepresentations of published text, throughout this thread, put a strain on patience as well as on your credibility. Thus, by 'Not necessarily' you actually mean here 'Yes, I agree with Farnboro' - given that your following sentence directly supports what he's just said. For intellectual credibility, you would have been better just leaving it at: 'I'll tick anything that's not in a cage and doesn't have its wings clipped'; there's no argument to be had with that.

 

[condor1992]

The twists and turns (and failures) of your rationale, and your misrepresentations of published text, throughout this thread, put a strain on patience as well as on your credibility. Thus, by 'Not necessarily' you actually mean here 'Yes, I agree with Farnboro' - given that your following sentence directly supports what he's just said. For intellectual credibility, you would have been better just leaving it at: 'I'll tick anything that's not in a cage and doesn't have its wings clipped'; there's no argument to be had with that.

You have consistently failed to answer any of my questions. Instead of answering my points, you are now starting to slander and harass me just because I have a different opinion. I will not enter into further correspondence with you, and would appreciate it if you left me alone. I've seen enough, and researched enough, to form my opinion of the pheasant and great bustards, and no amount of cyber-bullying here will, ever, ever, make me change my mind.

 

[Owene]

If it's having support it's being sustained, not self-sustaining. It's not difficult.

John

Total agreement with you on the species mentioned here but Is a shooting ban support. Or habitat management?

I think it is but we consider many birds that benefit from them that we might never see otherwise (unprovable I know) tickable

I guess sustainable status only really refers to cat c

 

[Farnboro John]

Total agreement with you on the species mentioned here but Is a shooting ban support. Or habitat management?

I think it is but we consider many birds that benefit from them that we might never see otherwise (unprovable I know) tickable

I guess sustainable status only really refers to cat c

Shooting ban: not support but removal of persecution.

Habitat management is the only way to maintain habitat in its current form. Stop it and habitat moves towards its climax state - woodland, choked swamp and so on. All agriculture is habitat management (including forestry) - there isn't really any unmanaged habitat in Britain.

Without it (i.e. with unbridled land grabbing and development by capitalists: not just destruction by building mining and golf courses but e.g. extension of driven grouse moors with the associated annihilation of much of the ecosystem) Britain's wildlife would be poor indeed.

John

 

[Welsh Peregrine]

As said before, your list, your rules. I fail to see why you seem to be asking for any validation if you have already made your mind up. By all means, share your rules if you wish (the longer your list, the more fuzzy edges there will be!), or ask if anyone has specific information; in most cases it will merely be (more or less well-informed) speculation. As a specific point, does anyone know if the Wood Ducks in the London Parks are ringed? Have any of the Pheasants been ringed? Actually, if a category C bird has been caught and rung, is it legal to release it again?

 

[Farnboro John]

As said before, your list, your rules. I fail to see why you seem to be asking for any validation if you have already made your mind up. By all means, share your rules if you wish (the longer your list, the more fuzzy edges there will be!), or ask if anyone has specific information; in most cases it will merely be (more or less well-informed) speculation. As a specific point, does anyone know if the Wood Ducks in the London Parks are ringed? Have any of the Pheasants been ringed? Actually, if a category C bird has been caught and rung, is it legal to release it again?

I think it must be or surely releasing Cat C birds in millions in the first place must be an offence?

John

 

[Richard D]

Can you safely tick Turtle Doves? Homepage - TURTLE DOVE TRUST

 

[Mono]

The things that can't be released into the wild without licence are covered in Schedule 9 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act. Common Pheasant isn't on that list but other Pheasants Golden, Lady Amherst's, Reeves are on the list.

 

[Welsh Peregrine]

Seems that Egyptian Geese are also on the invasive list, so could not be released.