Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
I think the bill tip may be behind that reed making it hard to know exact shape/length.
Found this terrible Garden pic, nice looking, huh!
http://reddeparquesnacionales.mma.es/parques/cabrera/fauna/fauna029.htma
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France, warbler (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ekopa
- Start date
I think the bill tip may be behind that reed making it hard to know exact shape/length.
Found this terrible Garden pic, nice looking, huh!
http://reddeparquesnacionales.mma.es/parques/cabrera/fauna/fauna029.htma
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
I agree that foot colour was my best point, at least in terms of comprehensibility. However, in this case the main feature to me is the jizz of the bird. Usually I don't use the term, as it is not too good an argument and can be interpreted quite freely.
The description of the facial pattern of GW would be quite similar to description of the facial pattern of a RW. However, in reality there are subtle differences both in proportions (eye size, bill shape) and colours (the strength of the supercilium, loral patch and orbital ring), which make the species look quite different (IMO). For example, the GW in your link above looks like a very straightforward GW to me (like all the other GWs linked in this thread), whereas the subject bird doesn't look anything like a GW. But this discussion has revealed that we don't see things the same way, and I must admit that I cannot give any better explanation why the jizz of the facial pattern of the subject bird doesn't fit GW (probably the same applies vice versa).
jizz isn't well-judged from a photo either though (like colour!), as it will look very different a second later, and it's in an unusual pose anyway. But fwiw the domed crown looks nowt like a Reed to me. But as I've just edited above, I'm not 100% sure either way - the tail looks like it *could* be rounded (ergo reed), but it's not clear enough to be sure. It still looks chiffchaff-like to me on first glance, but it clearly isn't, so perceptions are all over the place on this one.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
nice try, mate! No, that reed is well behind the bird. Look at the reed it's stood on, it's in the foreground, and the reed behind that is behind the bird and in front of the reed you're talking about
why are we still talking about this at 2am?! BEDTIME!
Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
For example, the GW in your link above looks like a very straightforward GW to me (like all the other GWs linked in this thread), whereas the subject bird doesn't look anything like a GW. But this discussion has revealed that we don't see things the same way, and I must admit that I cannot give any better explanation why the jizz of the facial pattern of the subject bird doesn't fit GW (probably the same applies vice versa
We may see things the same way. All those look Gardens to me too
And the subject has a Garden feel to me (never been sure...), though I admit I've looked too much at the pic and start seeing things...pro your side. 3AM Spain.Good night!
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Lappkrabben
Well-known member
Ok, it's not a chiffchaff. I had a quick look and gave my first thoghts, wich is not allways right. Reed warbler sounds like a good candidate (wich actually was in my mind for a split second yesterday, but was ruled out by legs and shape . I wont even try to discuss separating garden/reed warbler judging by the details mentioned above.
I'm more a jizz-birder and sometimes that's a disability, in this case for example!
Do not allways rely on first impressions ;-)
Thank you guys for the late night shift!
. I wont even try to discuss separating garden/reed warbler judging by the details mentioned above.I'm more a jizz-birder and sometimes that's a disability, in this case for example!
Do not allways rely on first impressions ;-)
Thank you guys for the late night shift!
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hannu
Well-known member
I don't know does it very prudent to give opinion to the case, which looks rather contradictory. First of all, it looks very interesting individual, which has at least almost a full grown wings. Thus that indicate that the bill is also almost full length too. Even this bird has a little bit phyllocs face (especially very rounded head, which perhaps due to adjusted neck), Phyllosc-option can rule out e.g. the number of primary tips (this case has obviously 9, phyllocs has 7 or so), the supposed shape of tail (most propably rounded), the eye size (looks relatively bigger than small sized Phyllosc eyes), the lenght of primary projection (looks relative long, almost same lenght as the lenght of tertials, which can be also in Willow, but tail projection perhaps too long for Willow), obvious one emargination (p8) etc.
According to the Garden Warbler, the shape of bill does not fit to that species (should be heavier base than this case and more curved upper edge of upper mandible), neither tail projection (tail looks too long compared to the length of the trailing edge of wing), the number of primary tips is usually at most 8 in this species, etc…
So I think that Reed Warbler is a good option for this case. Only one disturbing detail for Reed is perhaps the colour of legs, which should be paler in juvenile, but it can due to photo too…
According to the Garden Warbler, the shape of bill does not fit to that species (should be heavier base than this case and more curved upper edge of upper mandible), neither tail projection (tail looks too long compared to the length of the trailing edge of wing), the number of primary tips is usually at most 8 in this species, etc…
So I think that Reed Warbler is a good option for this case. Only one disturbing detail for Reed is perhaps the colour of legs, which should be paler in juvenile, but it can due to photo too…
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KnockerNorton
Well-known member
do you think the length of the bill is ok for Reed Warbler?
pianoman
duck and diver, bobolink and weaver
Although not very well defined, the photo in the OP does, to me,have a supercilium which stretches from the bill to the nape. Just the other day I saw a Chiffchaff with a super as faint as this, it was really worn all over. Can Garden Warbler have any sort of detectable super? Don't see enough of them to be sure unfortunately.
hannu
Well-known member
I admit that it looks rather short, but it varies a lot in Reed, especially in juveniles.
Also we don't see the whole bill so it leaves us to speculate it's real length...
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Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
8 tips is also the usual in Reed I guess, so 9 tips would be just a bit unusual for both species.
Leg colour looks fine for juv Reed, legs get paler with age in this species (I'm sure you knew that!).
After lots of indecision and a good sleep I've changed my initial idea and now think it is more likely a Reed, thanks to CAU's detailed analysis :t:. I share with KN his concerns about the bill though, if it looks strange on a Garden it doesn´t look too good for Reed either...
Tail shape, tertial colours/length, white in front of eye etc are so variable I guess we can find pics showing similarities in some Gardens, they don't help me decide:
http://www.alsirhan.com/images/Garden_Warbler_sc420.jpg
But the same is also true for all the pro Garden feel I had when I saw the image first. I can see now the bird fits slightly better Reed. Also a reedbed is a more likely habitat for a very young Reed I guess, unless there're breeding Gardens very close to the bed of course.
A difficult image for sure (at least for me). If anyone finds pics of Gardens this age i'd be happy to see them posted here, it'll be a good lesson, like this whole thread.
Cheers,
Eduardo
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After reading and learning from all the arguments, I'm still inclined to think it's a Garden Warbler.
We can see the whole beak, the behind the reed effect is caused by the curved point of the upper mandible IMO.
After trying to evaluate the various pro's and con's, I think there aren't enough "easy" arguments for Reed Warbler, except that it is sitting in reed and possibly the yellow hind toe. On the other side, the beak, legs, overall coloration and contrast between the different parts are all "easy" arguments for Garden Warbler.
I believe this is a fairly decently colour balanced pic and we can see the colours both in sun and in shade. So espescially the lack of creamy and warmer brown tones seems important to me, I would also expect some traces of roufousness in a Reed Warbler.
Further I only count 8 primary tips, but I'm definitly no expert in judging wing formula's.
We can see the whole beak, the behind the reed effect is caused by the curved point of the upper mandible IMO.
After trying to evaluate the various pro's and con's, I think there aren't enough "easy" arguments for Reed Warbler, except that it is sitting in reed and possibly the yellow hind toe. On the other side, the beak, legs, overall coloration and contrast between the different parts are all "easy" arguments for Garden Warbler.
I believe this is a fairly decently colour balanced pic and we can see the colours both in sun and in shade. So espescially the lack of creamy and warmer brown tones seems important to me, I would also expect some traces of roufousness in a Reed Warbler.
Further I only count 8 primary tips, but I'm definitly no expert in judging wing formula's.
Motmot
Eduardo Amengual
hannu
Well-known member
Yep, I did not remember this rigthly (I didn't check this carefully), so you are right!
In my mind and if I remember rigth again, the legs are rather bluish grey in juveniles, see e.g follow link:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Acrsci080725LaajisPaP4.jpg
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KnockerNorton
Well-known member
does it? How are you ageing this bird as a juvenile? And why would bill vary in juveniles but not in adults? Are you suggesting the bill could still grow, or that small-billed birds don't survive?
We certainly are seeing the whole bill. If you look at the reed coming from the top of the birds head, that cuts in front of the reed that is at the tip of the bill. So the reed near the bill is well behind the bird, and the bill tip is in front of that reed and not behind. In other words, we are seeing the entire bill.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
We do have the possibility that this is a moulting adult, not a juvenile. There is no clear evidence that it is a juvneile, just the overall impression that it is rather scruffy. But a moulting adult would be scruffy too at this time of year. It would also be moulting the tail (so some apparent short feathers could be regrowing) and moulting the wings, so some wing tips or tertials could be missing that give a false impression.
Again, i think the bill is the key point on this bird. All other criteria could be ambiguous or variable for either reed or garden (face pattern, shape, colour [due to photo], habitat [i see reed in potato fields, and garden on coastal dunes, it means nothing in late summer], leg/foot colour [staining/age/variation]). Only bill length is something we can be sure of, and which is the most distinctive feature on this bird in relation to reed or garden. We can see all of it. For me, it is not long enough for reed, but the blunt rounded tip, shortish length is good for garden. It looks rather thickish-based to me too.
hannu
Well-known member
I think that I have sleep too less in last nigth
I have to think whole case over...
Yep, you are rigth (sorry, my sleepy eyes) and then it will favour more Garden W, as Motmot first suggested.:t:
Silvio Davison
Well-known member
I agree with KN. No evident characters suggest the bird is a juv. rather than moulting adult, in which case a strict analysis of the bird could mean mis-iding it (cf. Eduardo's signature ). Bill is way too short for Reed and it's more GW coloured than scirpaceus and leg colour fits Garden much better shurely? I won't write all the evident features of this individual because already mentioned but I can't figure out Reed, instead I see a Garden Warbler allright. This is not to say that it's not Reed, but that it just looks better for Garden although some characters are wrong for this species.
Ciao
Silv
). Bill is way too short for Reed and it's more GW coloured than scirpaceus and leg colour fits Garden much better shurely? I won't write all the evident features of this individual because already mentioned but I can't figure out Reed, instead I see a Garden Warbler allright. This is not to say that it's not Reed, but that it just looks better for Garden although some characters are wrong for this species. Ciao
Silv
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Hi all,
While I first thought that the bird was a Reed Warbler, I looked at the pics again after reading through the two pages of debate, and now would lean more towards a Garden Warbler. The facial pattern is arguably better for Garden, though would not, in itself, exclude Reed from this one image alone, the primary projection could arguably suit both, as could the leg colour, but I do reckon that the bill length is better for Garden than Reed, as is the lack of obvious pale on the lower mandible. I also think that the fact that the bird appears to be agitated is messing around with the structure, making it look longer than it is: if that neck were contracted and at rest, the bird would surely be quite compact-looking.
All in all, this just goes to show how two species which are normally readily seperable on any sort of field views can be far more perplexing when one is faced with a single pic!
Regards,
Harry
While I first thought that the bird was a Reed Warbler, I looked at the pics again after reading through the two pages of debate, and now would lean more towards a Garden Warbler. The facial pattern is arguably better for Garden, though would not, in itself, exclude Reed from this one image alone, the primary projection could arguably suit both, as could the leg colour, but I do reckon that the bill length is better for Garden than Reed, as is the lack of obvious pale on the lower mandible. I also think that the fact that the bird appears to be agitated is messing around with the structure, making it look longer than it is: if that neck were contracted and at rest, the bird would surely be quite compact-looking.
All in all, this just goes to show how two species which are normally readily seperable on any sort of field views can be far more perplexing when one is faced with a single pic!
Regards,
Harry
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