Pipit for discussion (3 Viewers)

[CJW]

Seems reasonable - if there's so many littoralis wintering in IoM, Lancs, Cheshire, etc., it stands to reason they have to cross England overland to get there. I don't think they'd be so 'foolish' as to go the long way round along the coast via either northwest Scotland, or Cornwall.

My thoughts entirely.

 

[StuartReeves]

On the subject of the identifiability of spinoletta v's littoralis, I sit on a local rarities committee in the Midlands, where the picture might superficially be clearer. One would think that in middle England, spinoletta (spin from now on)would be regular in spring, whilst petrosus/littoralis (pet/lit) would be less common, being supposedly a coastal bird.

This is not, however, the case. There are hundreds of records of "Rock pipit" in the last 30 years, averaging about 10-15 per annum. Spin however, has averaged 4-6 records, of 6-20 birds, in the last ten years. Given that all of the Rocks are most likely to be litts, this may suddenly throw into doubt some of the spin records.

As I mentioned, I raised this question for Scotland a few years back. Another related issues is the migration of A.spinoletta. The species does not breed any further north than central Germany so the birds that regularly winter in southern England are likely to depart in a southerly direction in order to return to their breeding grounds. This makes a regular passage through central England look rather unlikely - where would such birds be coming from ? I suspect passage littoralis will prove to be much more common than Water Pipit once the records are adequately documented.

At the same time the status of Water Pipit as a wintering bird is changing, with birds becoming more regular in small numbers in Scandinavia in winter. As if things weren't already confusing enough...

Stuart

 

[Nutcracker]

This makes a regular passage through central England look rather unlikely - where would such birds be coming from ?

Agreed. Total Water Pipit records accepted for Northumberland for the 5 years '98-'02:
1998: 0
1999: 2
2000: 0
2001: 0
2002: 0

So there aren't many from here for starters

 

[Brian Stone]

These birds are giving me a real headache locally (North Cambs/South Lincs). Water Pipit is a regular wintering species in very small numbers on the Nene Washes and must be a very scarce passage migrant. Rock Pipit is similarly scarce on passage with most records from around October. There are very few spring records of either species away from the Water Pipit wintering area.

I saw a bird last week in the middle of the Water Pipit wintering area. Based on where it was and what it was doing it should be one of the wintering Water Pipits. However, it wasn't convincing at all. Unfortunately it was half a mile away early on a dull, windy and drizzly morning so some of the finer detail is missing.

Briefly: Upperparts dark grey/brown and unstreaked. No discernable contrast between back/mantle and head; two distinct thin pale greyish wingbars; fairly strong pale supercillium, broad above eye, extending a little way behind the eye and thinning; pale, whitish chin and throat extending to slightly sullied pale underparts; heavy, blotched streaking across the upper breast, breast sides and extending along flanks thinning towards the rear, less on lower breast and none on belly.

It was feeding along the muddy strips on the main floods and prefered the small patches of emergent green vegetation floating on the water.

It was really too far away (and too dull and windy) for digiscoping but I eventually gave it a go and there are two pics attached if you can locate the bird in them

Personally I have not been happy assigning this to either taxa so far.

 

[Nutcracker]

Yes, I can see a bird there, and it does look suspiciously like a pipit . . . but more than that, I'd not want to say!

 

[Brian Stone]

Yes, I can see a bird there, and it does look suspiciously like a pipit . . . but more than that, I'd not want to say!

Don't blame you at all!

 

[Jane Turner]

Your description combined with what I can or more accurately can't make out in the pic does suggest a Rock Pipit...

 

[Jane Turner]

As must be well know by now I have a theory that says a huge number of Water pipit records have been based on the (IMO) erroneous theory that pipits feeding on wet meadows with good supercillia and white outer TF's must be spinoletta. I've tried my damndest to see a Water Pipit on the Dee for the last 7 years and have not seen a certain one. I have however seen people claiming Rock Pipits as Water Pipits on plenty of occasions. There are however HUGE numbers of what must be littoralis Rockits out there. I notice that a flyover Water Pipit was claimed at Neston yesterday, though I doubt the rarities committee will be troubled with a description!!

My last non-Rock Pipit was something like 10 years ago, and that looked like a japonicus!!!

 

[Nutcracker]

Are there any ringing recoveries of Wapits from the Alps in Britain?

 

[Jane Turner]

I don't believe there are Peter, no...

 

[Mike Pennington]

As must be well know by now I have a theory that says a huge number of Water pipit records have been based on the (IMO) erroneous theory that pipits feeding on wet meadows with good supercillia and white outer TF's must be spinoletta. I've tried my damndest to see a Water Pipit on the Dee for the last 7 years and have not seen a certain one. I have however seen people claiming Rock Pipits as Water Pipits on plenty of occasions. There are however HUGE numbers of what must be littoralis Rockits out there. I notice that a flyover Water Pipit was claimed at Neston yesterday, though I doubt the rarities committee will be troubled with a description!!

Very interesting, especially as I note that Lancashire still publish records of numerous Water Pipits e.g. the 2003 report has a count of 5-10 at Warton on 19-20 March but it also notes that one caugt in Burnley on 24 March although 'some who have viewed the photographs feel it was more likely to be littoralis' while later is noted that hte proportion of petrosus and littoralis Rockits has been 'a topic of lively debate within the county'.

I have heard that the ID of the Warton Water Pipits has been called into question. Any comments from Lancashire (Stephen?). Have any been photographed/trapped and conclusivley and unequivocally identified?

Personally I'm coming round to Jane's view (I had leanings that way anyway) and would suspect that any claimed Water Pipit outside SE England needs to be conclusively proven NOT to be littoralis. Is there anywhere else where Water Pipits are KNOWN to occur?

As for petrosus, Shetland birds may move to Scotland or further, which could mean that not all immigrants are littoralis. One Shetland chick has been recovered in Grampian and others (ringed as full-grown) have been recorded as far south as NE England and one as far as the Netherlands. Now these COULD of course be passage littoralis but there is no other evidence of autumn passage of this race and I would guess that most of these were ringed on Fair Isle. From my time there, I would think that most of these were local-bred juveniles caught in early autumn, although I can't prove this.

 

[Brian Stone]

I notice that a flyover Water Pipit was claimed at Neston yesterday, though I doubt the rarities committee will be troubled with a description!!

Say for the sake of argument it was calling. Would you accept a record based on call?

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Mike,

The Burnley bird is now generally regarded to be a Water Pipit. The person who was least keen from the original pics of it in sum plum saw pics of it in winter and thought some of the anomalies may have only been on the pics and not 'in the flesh'. I can provide a hyperlink (I think) if this is of interest.

Warton pipits - still some dissenting voices, but generally considered to be Water Pipits. See the link I gave earlier for pics of these birds and Rock Pipits at the same site (also covered in my article in the 2003 Lancs Bird Report). There is no question that if these are Water Pipits (and most people think they are) their choice of habitat is unusual. None have been trapped because it is a private site, some Rockits have been trapped elsewhere in Lancs this year as part of a study of the wintering birds.

Regards,

Stephen.

 

[Mike Pennington]

Say for the sake of argument it was calling. Would you accept a record based on call?

I know this is directed at Jane but in my case - no.

I know that the calls are slightly different but given the problems with perception between observers, transcription by the observer and interpretation by the reader I can't see how I would be convinced unless, perhaps, it was from an experinced observer at a known site.

 

[Edward woodwood]

No Brian

way too tricky i fear

Tim

 

[Mike Pennington]

Mike,

The Burnley bird is now generally regarded to be a Water Pipit. The person who was least keen from the original pics of it in sum plum saw pics of it in winter and thought some of the anomalies may have only been on the pics and not 'in the flesh'. I can provide a hyperlink (I think) if this is of interest.

Warton pipits - still some dissenting voices, but generally considered to be Water Pipits. See the link I gave earlier for pics of these birds and Rock Pipits at the same site (also covered in my article in the 2003 Lancs Bird Report). There is no question that if these are Water Pipits (and most people think they are) there choice of habitat is unusual. None have been trapped because it is a private site, some Rockits have been trapped elsewhere in Lancs this year as part of a study of the wintering birds.

Regards,

Stephen.

Hi Stephen,

Whoops - read the whole report first!

Still interesting though isn't it? The Water Pipits wintering at Warton are so far from any other established site and the just don't seem to winter on the Dee, despite past claims.

I think several of us would like to see the hyperlink (but we must all remember that the photos are not as conclusive as we might think and are often inferior to the field experience).

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Hi Stephen,

Whoops - read the whole report first!

Still interesting though isn't it? The Water Pipits wintering at Warton are so far from any other established site and the just don't seem to winter on the Dee, despite past claims.

I think several of us would like to see the hyperlink (but we must all remember that the photos are not as conclusive as we might think and are often inferior to the field experience).

http://www.eastlancashirebirding.net/waterpipit.htm

Note - the two bird theory doesn't seem to have been completely ruled out, but would be an extraordinary coincidence.

Stephen.

 

[CJW]

Having looked at the photos, I feel that the March shots are of a littoralis - it certainly looks nearly identical to the birds we are seeing over here at the moment. As for the November photos, well my gut reaction was that it is a Water Pipit and, therefore the two bird theory is alive and well!

 

[StuartReeves]

Still interesting though isn't it? The Water Pipits wintering at Warton are so far from any other established site and the just don't seem to winter on the Dee, despite past claims.

Water Pipits are doing some funny things at the moment, certainly in regard to their status in Scandinavia. Unprecedented numbers wintered in Denmark in 2003-2004, at least 90 birds if I remember rightly. The first national record was only in 1989 so last winter's influx represented a major change in status.

Stuart

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Water Pipits are doing some funny things at the moment, certainly in regard to their status in Scandinavia. Unprecedented numbers wintered in Denmark in 2003-2004, at least 90 birds if I remember rightly. The first national record was only in 1989 so last winter's influx represented a major change in status.

Stuart

Yes, there is some evidence they are increasing over here too. Aside from the Warton birds Mike refers to they have been seen further north at the same North Cumbrian site three years on the bounce now.

Regards,

Stephen.