zeiss sf 8x42 vs zeiss ht 8x42 (5 Viewers)

[John A Roberts]

I don’t think that anyone would dispute that x56 binoculars are primarily intended for hunters,
since they would be the largest identifiable group of purchasers.

And that makes the point that within any binocular lineup (e.g. Zeiss HT or FL; Swarovski NL, EL SV or SLC, or; Leica NV or UV),
particular models are going to better suit particular uses/ users.

But that doesn’t make the case that a particular lineup was solely or even primarily designed with one user group in mind,
regardless of how it may be marketed once in production *

And even within Zeiss there seems to be confusion on this.
e.g. see Andreas’ conversation with a Zeiss service employee, and what he said about the FL and HT lines being aimed at hunters (post #182).
In contrast, the press release about the HT from the then president of CZ Sports Optics directly contradicts this regarding the FL line
(see the highlighted text in post #170).


John


* The clear exception is the Zeiss SF x42, in light of Dobler's detailed comments about it's creation.

 

[John A Roberts]

As with Zeiss and Leitz/ Leica, from it’s start in the late 1940’s Swarovski Optik also offered hunting orientated products,
since hunters were a significant portion of the commercial market.

But like the others, Swarovski was not solely or primarily focused on hunting sales.
Their early flyers make the point (in the same way as those of Zeiss and Leitz do).
Hunting is one among several primary uses for binoculars:



A 1950’s flyer from Gijs’ great monograph on Swarovski Optik at:
https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/verrekijkers/verrekijkers-testen-en-vergelijken/


John


p.s. As can be seen, to distinguish the Habicht from other binoculars, the stress is on the dual layer lens coating
verses the single layer coating available from other manufacturers.

 

[Owlbarred]

Re: binoculars used for hunting. It's a bit of a canard and clearly depends on the species being hunted and the habitat it occupies. A grouse, pheasant or quail hunter, for example, would be foolish (and look absurd) lugging around a heavy pair of 12x50s or 15x56s. A relatively short-range shotgun, not a rifle, is used to bag these species, and a so-called 'birding bino' (even 7x) is the best way to go.

 

[Paultricounty]

I have no idea Tom, I'm tired of the discussion now, maybe you trust Swarovski?

That was exactly my thought as well. Patterns!

Welches Fernglas für die Jagd?

Welches Fernglas ist der ideale Begleiter für die Jagd? Jetzt mit den Tipps von SWAROVSKI OPTIK die passende Optik wählen >>

www.swarovskioptik.com

"AT DUSK
When hunting from a hide in the twilight, the twilight performance is particularly important. This would clearly be a task for an 8x56 "night glass".

Andreas

 

[Patudo]

@Conndomat (#200) - very much agree - besides the 8x56 and 10x56 being the classic low light glasses for European hunters, I would say the 8x40/42 is the classic birding format, combining enough magnification to make out field marks with a package that is small and light enough for most people to easily use. Today there is a lot more diversification in both binoculars and their uses, making it harder for individual models to stand out from the pack enough to reach classic status, but I'd still point to the modern high performance 8x32 (FL, EL and successors) as an example of a classic birding binocular - reasonably small and light (those who imply that birders are pantywaists for desiring these qualities in a binocular might find it helpful to spend a weekend walking around a forested area trying to find and identify birds with a x56), and fast focusing to help get on fast-moving targets at short distance quickly.

As for "the other sport" I think what elevated binoculars to classic status as hunting binoculars was ruggedness more than anything else, along with price (not so expensive as to be unaffordable by keepers and other professionals, whose choices tend to drive opinion). Dialyts, Trinovids (which every so often you still see in photos from Scottish stalking trips) had this, and so too did SLCs which are probably the closest thing to a modern classic.

@Owlbarred - I don't think any shooting person (at least here in the UK) after what you would call "upland game birds" (partridge, pheasant, grouse etc) uses binoculars, at least not for the purposes of locating game. Dogs and/or human beaters are used to flush the game. Waterfowl is, of course, a different ball game - but I'm not sure how often binoculars are used by those after duck and geese here, nor what format is preferred.

 

[Patudo]

A lot is made in conversations here and there about big exit pupils and the benefits to hunting the edges of the day. But then theres the convo about the wisdom of that practice at least here in the US.

This is a worthwhile point - as I understand it a lot more game is sought in the U.S. in what might be called "normal observing hours" than in Europe, and large expanses of rough terrain make larger format binoculars less desired. The requirements seem similar to what would be used for "stalking" deer in Scotland where 10x40 and similar formats (nowadays enhanced with rangefinders) have traditionally been popular. It's certainly fair to say there is crossover between some birding and hunting requirements and 10x40/42 (and in former days 10x50) are probably the most in this zone.

A 1950’s flyer from Gijs’ great monograph on Swarovski Optik

There are some interesting clues in the names of those binoculars - Merkur, Mars, Diana. Merkur (Mercury/Hermes) was the god of travellers - a suitable name for one of the most useful formats if you are travelling (and therefore need something fairly lightweight and small in bulk, in a magnification that covers a wide range of observing situations). 8x30 has long been used by the military and I guess the individual focus (more weather resistant than center focus) "Mars" reflects that. "Diana" suggests something more focused on hunting and all the illustrations for the Diana models show classic hunting quarries. It would be interesting to know when Swarovski's literature shifted towards the birdwatcher as they are, of course, more known for birding optics these days.

 

[GrampaTom]

Re: binoculars used for hunting. It's a bit of a canard and clearly depends on the species being hunted and the habitat it occupies. A grouse, pheasant or quail hunter, for example, would be foolish (and look absurd) lugging around a heavy pair of 12x50s or 15x56s. A relatively short-range shotgun, not a rifle, is used to bag these species, and a so-called 'birding bino' (even 7x) is the best way to go.

GrampaTom said:
A lot is made in conversations here and there about big exit pupils and the benefits to hunting the edges of the day. But then theres the convo about the wisdom of that practice at least here in the US.

This is a worthwhile point - as I understand it a lot more game is sought in the U.S. in what might be called "normal observing hours" than in Europe, and large expanses of rough terrain make larger format binoculars less desired. The requirements seem similar to what would be used for "stalking" deer in Scotland where 10x40 and similar formats (nowadays enhanced with rangefinders) have traditionally been popular. It's certainly fair to say there is crossover between some birding and hunting requirements and 10x40/42 (and in former days 10x50) are probably the most in this zone.

Owlbarred your first sentence is correct. Patudo, thats it zactly. Been trying to say, this. My mistake in assuming the rest of the world understands the hunting circumstances here, in what is likely one of, if not the largest sport hunting countries there is. My bad. Theres currently about 15 million licensed hunters in the US. Used to be 17 in my day. Germany reports 300,000. The terrain from the hardwood forests of New England to the bayous, swamps, and softer wood trees of the southeast, across the plains of the middle of the country, (don't ignore the dense forests and ample water of the Great Lakes region), then the Rockies of Colorado, the canyons and deserts of Arizona, New Mexico to the Sierras here the Cascades of the northwest all merging with the Pacific, hunting in North America is a very diverse activity. A quick check of Google reveals night hunting is allowed in most US states, but for very restricted game, mostly nocturnal critters like raccoon or Possum or frogs - all short range affairs. Most states restrict night hunting and control by the official sunrise/sunset standards bigger game hunting, like deer, elk, moose, wild sheep, etc. In these circumstances high power rifles that have very significant long range capability are standard, and for safety reasons night hunting with these, of those is not common.

I get the big objective binos have a hunting application and suspect that application often encountered in places like Germany, with its very different terrain, game and customs. Certainly folks here discuss their application for birding, witness a very recent thread on the subject. That said, It does not translate that there is some sort of wholesale trend throughout the hunting world towards big objective binos. Patudo and Owlbarred are correct, for many of the same reasons birders choose 40, 42 or even 32s, so do hunters.

Owlbarred, minor point re your second and third sentences, Ive never seen bird hunters use binos. They usually prefer dogs...

Knowing this conversation is pushing the bounds of Birdfroum rules and will make some uncomfortable, I submit the conversation kinda took us here. Still just trying to make the point that birders and hunters use of binos have more in common than many here want to think about.

 

[norway]

While we’re on this digression, I’ll just mention that 42 mm and even 32 mm binoculars are quite a bit more popular than 56 mm ones with hunters around here. This also applies to rangefinding binoculars.

 

[dries1]

Well I guess we better get rid of those 56mm then. I wonder what the sales comparisons are for large 8 or 10X56 vs 7X35 or 7X42 for those that still make them.

 

[John A Roberts]

Hi Patudo (post #226),

Good to see that someone picked up on the classical references used as secondary names on the Habicht line.

From what I’ve been able to find out from various early flyers and later catalogues:
the names were used as early as 1954, and;
their use lasted until the late 1960's, at least on the specification page for the full range of models.


Some retailers continued to use the names much longer e.g. in the Spring 1984 issue of Scottish Birding,
an ad from Charles Frank Ltd. describes the 10x40 as the Diana, but with nothing added for the 7x42 or 8x30.
And in the June 1984 issue of British Birds in a review of the new SL 10x40, the author refers to the new binoculars
as from Swarovski Habicht (sic) ". . . makers of the 'Diana' model . . ."
So there was still awareness and usage of the names, long after they were discontinued by Swarovski.


And a minor correction: Mars was the name for the 6x30, since it was a widely used military glass in much of Europe
until the end of WWII.
e.g. As a result of the Anschluss of 1938, Austria was part of the Third Reich during WWII.
And during that time, Swarovski KG (the original crystal company, converted to war production),
made 183,000 units of the standard pattern 6x30 Dienstglas.
Various sites claim that was 18% of the wartime production - so over 1 million units in all!


John

 

[GrampaTom]

Well I guess we better get rid of those 56mm then. I wonder what the sales comparisons are for large 8 or 10X56 vs 7X35 or 7X42 for those that still make them.

Grouse, pheasant or quail?

 

[dries1]

Grouse, pheasant or quail?

Ok you got me.

 

[Conndomat]

Germany reports 300,000.

Nope, over 400,000 now, get some fresh numbers.
It also makes no sense to compare Germany with the USA, the USA is almost 27 times as big, if at all a comparison is possible then with the whole of Europe, or at least the European Union.

The fact that there is less hunting in Germany is simply because Germany is much more densely populated, that applies to all of Europe, so hunting and the use or non-use of binoculars is also completely different, here you use night vision devices or optics that are as bright as possible.

Curiously Zeiss discontinued their 8/10x42HT models right where new night hunting laws came out in Germany and Poland, funny that..

Andreas

 

[GrampaTom]

Nope, over 400,000 now, get some fresh numbers.
It also makes no sense to compare Germany with the USA, the USA is almost 27 times as big, if at all a comparison is possible then with the whole of Europe, or at least the European Union.

The fact that there is less hunting in Germany is simply because Germany is much more densely populated, that applies to all of Europe, so hunting and the use or non-use of binoculars is also completely different, here you use night vision devices or optics that are as bright as possible.

Curiously Zeiss discontinued their 8/10x42HT models right where new night hunting laws came out in Germany and Poland, funny that..

Andreas

Well of course. Your point?
Im still working on mine, which is, "just trying to make the point that birders and hunters use of binos have more in common than many here want to think about."

 

[Conndomat]

Well of course. Your point?

My point was the original question!

Are there binoculars that primarily meet the needs of hunters and the question can be answered with a clear yes!

Otherwise, hunting here in Germany has degenerated into a leisure event, anyone who can afford it and wants to be hip takes it, binoculars only play a subordinate role.

Andreas

 

[norway]

"just trying to make the point that birders and hunters use of binos have more in common than many here want to think about."

For sure. In either case, it's a tool for observing wildlife in the field.

 

[SeldomPerched]

Ask Troub., he has both.

Troub sold his HT to me about a year before the pandemic. I don't have his experience but I much preferred the HT despite its more traditional view (i.e. narrower). The only bin I have come to regret selling even if the huge SFs felt better-balanced. I preferred the HT colour as well.

Tom