• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

A Day of Binocular Shopping... (1 Viewer)

Atomic Chicken

Registered with the D.O.E.
Greetings!

Today was one of my many trips to various area optics retailers in search of something new to suck the money out of my wallet! ;)

Inspired by my recent purchase last Saturday of a pair of Rugged Exposure (rebranded Barska) 10X42 waterproof chinese roof prism binoculars (they STILL continue to amaze me with their excellent optical quality and $60 price tag!), I decided to run around and see what else was available in the "cheap" end of the price range that might be half decent. I went to 4 retailers, and after over 5 hours of careful, objective examination of close to 50 low-cost models, I am here to report that absolutely ZERO binoculars I examined came anywhere NEAR the image and build quality of the Rugged Exposure 10x42's. I halfway expected as much, they seemed like just too good a binocular to be true... so after testing I promptly drove to the sporting goods store I purchased my first pair from and purchased a backup pair, their last available unit - the display model.

I also looked at quite a few higher-end binoculars today, including the much coveted (by me!) Leica Duovid 8-12x42. I continue to be amazed by these optics - after hearing so many good things on this forum about them it is nice to be able to verify that they are indeed everything they are cracked up to be. A bit expensive and heavy, but otherwise probably the best attempt yet made by a high-end optics manufacturer to make the best "all around" binoculars for the widest range of uses.

I did an extensive comparison of compact high-power binoculars (10-12x) that weigh under 1lb, including models by Nikon, Zeiss, Swarovski, Bushnell, and half a dozen cheap brands that aren't even worth writing about. Of all the models that fit these specifications, I was most impressed by the image quality of the (now obsolete, but still available) Zeiss Diafun 10x30 and Nikon LX 10x25 models, with the Zeiss Diafun having probably a 5% edge in optical performance including center sharpness and low light performance. The two were equally bright, and had approx. the same levels of CA. I would rank the Zeiss Victory 10x25 compact just slightly below the Nikon LX 10x25, which kind of surprised me because when I purchased my 8x20 compact the Zeiss Victory 8x20 was slightly better. This just shows that at different powers and objective lens sizes, different manufacturers are not necessarily consistent across their entire product line.

Finally, I went to the largest optics dealer in the area (a sporting goods store that specializes in high-end optics brands) and examined several full size 7x to 8x binoculars with 42mm and 50mm objective lenses. I spent approx. 2 hours at this, not intending to purchase any of them but just for my own furthering education regarding what is available in these powers and sizes. Everything was fairly comparable in their respective price ranges, with two exceptions. First off, the Alpen 8x42 seemed inordinately bright and clear considering it's $289 local price, easily equalling the Pentax SP 8x42 at close to twice the price and completely conquering all other 8x42 binoculars under $400. I had never looked at this brand before, always overlooking them in the past because of their low cost and constant sales tags - I always thought "they must be crap to be on sale all the time!". I am happy to report that I was wrong, and that they really are worth a look if you are in search of low-end binoculars that really perform.

The 2nd surprise REALLY caught me by surprise. I noticed that the store was having a closeout sale on Bausch & Lomb optics at up to 50% off, and decided to take a look at a few models. The one that completely blew me away and actually took my breath away was the Bausch & Lomb Discoverer 7x42 (Model #61-0742). I kid you not - I swear upon all that is holy that these binoculars were the best pair I looked through all day. Bright, sharp, pure image and magnificent field of view, PC-3 phase coated, BAK4 prisms, waterproof, nitrogen purged, rainguard lens coating, and an image to kill for. I couldn't believe it! I requested a pair of Swarovski 8.5x42 EL's to compare them to, and I'll be dipped in mustard sauce if I could see any difference in image quality. At $279+tax, the cashier couldn't have dragged the money out of my wallet faster if she had mugged me (which I would have gladly allowed, considering her good looks! ;) ).

If anyone has an opportunity to examine a pair of these (now discontinued) binoculars, I can't urge you strongly enough to give them a chance - I'm overjoyed with my pair!

Best wishes,
Bawko

Edit: Corrected spelling mistake "Alpin" to "Alpen". Also corrected local price for the same binocular - I had "$249" listed from memory, but referring to my notes I realized the actual price is $289.
 
Last edited:
That sounds like too much fun, looking through bins all day without the intension of buying any. But, the end result was very predictable! Not that you found an outstanding bargain but that you bought something. It's the same with me; I'll tell my wife "I'm just going to start pricing and evaluating", then it's home within hours. Optics are nasty that way.
 
Atomic Chicken said:
Everything was fairly comparable in their respective price ranges, with two exceptions. First off, the Alpin 8x42 seemed inordinately bright and clear considering it's $249 local price, easily equalling the Pentax SP 8x42 at close to twice the price and completely conquering all other 8x42 binoculars under $400. I had never looked at this brand before, always overlooking them in the past because of their low cost and constant sales tags - I always thought "they must be crap to be on sale all the time!". I am happy to report that I was wrong, and that they really are worth a look if you are in search of low-end binoculars that really perform.

Bawko,

Did you mean Alpen? If so were they the Apex or Shasta model?
 
ranburr,


ranburr said:
Keep in mind all optics look good in the store.
ranburr

That is why I choose overcast or rainy days to go binocular shopping, today was very rainy here and quite dark. I always spend at least a few minutes with each binocular looking outside in overcast/rainy conditions as well as in the store at well lit scenes. All the shops in the area let you look at the binoculars outside if you leave your drivers license or deposit at the counter.

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
Bawko,
Thanks again for a nice report and congrats on a great purchase. I wonder whether Emily Dickinson really meant that by saying "I hope you love birds too. It is economical..."
Sorry... just couldn't resist ;)

Ilkka
 
Atomic Chicken said:
I also looked at quite a few higher-end binoculars today, including the much coveted (by me!) Leica Duovid 8-12x42. I continue to be amazed by these optics - after hearing so many good things on this forum about them it is nice to be able to verify that they are indeed everything they are cracked up to be. A bit expensive and heavy, but otherwise probably the best attempt yet made by a high-end optics manufacturer to make the best "all around" binoculars for the widest range of uses.


Bawko

Hi Bawko, if it wasn't for the weight I might be tempted by these.......

then again you don't see many in the field, well I don't.
 
Bawko,

Thanks, for an outstanding piece of entertainment! I think Comedy Central has some serious competition from the Bird Forum Binocular section.

I'm scheduled for a hiking vacation in Big Sur (CA) in the next month. After reading your report, I'm going to feel a little foolish plunking down the big bucks for a 7x42 FL, given the astonishingly low-priced bins you found. Oh, well, it's just money. ;)
 
Rico,

I'm hoping to pick up a pair of Zeiss FL 7X42 myself, by the end of the year. What kind of world would it be if we could only have one or two pair of binoculars? ;)

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
Ilkka,


iporali said:
Bawko,
Thanks again for a nice report and congrats on a great purchase. I wonder whether Emily Dickinson really meant that by saying "I hope you love birds too. It is economical..."
Sorry... just couldn't resist ;)

Ilkka

Hello! I'm not sure I understand your meaning, but here is a link to a quotations page where I found the quote originally, it seems fitting for a birding forum signature! ;)

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/32302.html

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
7x binoculars quite often look really good, bright, sharp. But there is a reason.

I can't imagine going to a bunch of stores on one day. I hate most camera store staff. I like the clueless teenagers at the sports store. They have no hard sell lines.

But glad you are enjoying the high and the low.

I have been putting off scopes for many reasons, and some have to do with all this shopping...
 
Hey Atomic,

Would you mind listing the objective size, power and FOV for each of the binocs that you evaluated ... plus an estimate of the optical transmission efficiency of each if you have one? I'd like to put the numbers in my brightness evaluation tool to see how it compares with your findings. I'll send the results as an attachment.

Thanks, elkcub
 
Last edited:
elkcub,


elkcub said:
Hey Atomic,

Would you mind listing the objective size, power and FOV for each of the binocs that you evaluated ... plus an estimate of the optical transmission efficiency of each if you have one? I'd like to put the numbers in my brightness evaluation tool to see how it compares with your findings. I'll send the results as an attachment.

Thanks, elkcub

That's quite a tall order, considering that I evaluated probably 80+ binoculars! However, if you are interested in just the notable binoculars that I found to be somewhat exceptional for their price and/or function, here goes:

Bausch & Lomb Discoverer 7x42 - Obj:42mm Power:7x FOV:420ft@1000yds
Rugged Exposure (Barska) 10x42 - Obj:42mm Power:10x FOV: 303ft@1000yds
Alpen Apex 8x42 - Obj:42mm Power:8x FOV:341ft@1000yds
Zeiss Diafun 10x30 - Obj:30mm Power:10x FOV:288ft@1000yds
Nikon LX 10x25 - Obj:25mm Power:10x FOV:282ft@1000yds
Leica Duovid 8/12x42 - Obj:42mm Power:8x/10x FOV:393ft/295ft@1000yds

I have no idea regarding the "optical transmission" figure you are asking for, let's just say that all of the above binoculars were truly exceptional in terms of clarity and brightness... the Bausch&Lomb and Zeiss in particular seemed like there was almost no glass in between! ;)

Hope this is what you are looking for!

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
Last edited:
Atomic Chicken said:
elkcub,




That's quite a tall order, considering that I evaluated probably 80+ binoculars! However, if you are interested in just the notable binoculars that I found to be somewhat exceptional for their price and/or function, here goes:

Bausch & Lomb Discoverer 7x42 - Obj:42mm Power:7x FOV:420ft@1000yds
Rugged Exposure (Barska) 10x42 - Obj:42mm Power:10x FOV: 303ft@1000yds
Alpen Apex 8x42 - Obj:42mm Power:8x FOV:341ft@1000yds
Zeiss Diafun 10x30 - Obj:30mm Power:10x FOV:288ft@1000yds
Nikon LX 10x25 - Obj:25mm Power:10x FOV:282ft@1000yds
Leica Duovid 8/12x42 - Obj:42mm Power:8x/10x FOV:393ft/295ft@1000yds

I have no idea regarding the "optical transmission" figure you are asking for, let's just say that all of the above binoculars were truly exceptional in terms of clarity and brightness... the Bausch&Lomb and Zeiss in particular seemed like there was almost no glass in between! ;)

Hope this is what you are looking for!

Best wishes,
Bawko

Perfect! Thanks Bawko, I'll get back with an analysis shortly just based on the published specs.

-elk
 
elkcub said:
Perfect! Thanks Bawko, I'll get back with an analysis shortly just based on the published specs.

-elk

Bawko,

These seven specimens are fine, and we'll assume they are all near-perfect light transmitters. I've attached three .pdf files, each showing perceived brightness relative to a Zeiss 10x40 B/GAT reference standard for different resting pupil diameters (r). This means if you had a Zeiss 10x40 in one hand and any of the candidate binoculars in the other, the charts show the comparative brighness on a percentage basis. 1.10 would mean 110% as bright as the Zeiss 10x40, .81 would mean 81% as bright, and so forth.

First examine the chart for r=6, where the observer's expanded pupil is large enough for every bin's pupil diameter. Five of your seven binocs are brigher than the Zeiss 10x40, and two are less bright with the LX being lowest (because of their smaller objective sizes). The particular design configuration of the Alpen makes it 27% brighter than the Zeiss 10x40! In general, the lower power large objective bins do very well (But note that the 10x42 is also well in the running).

Now look at the chart for r=3.2, which may approximate average daylight resting pupil diameters. (I don't know if this is true for sure.) The relationships change considerably, but note that all binoculars are agreeably close to the Zeiss 10x40 performance. Large exit pupil binocs that had an advantage at r=6 are now relatively dimmer. The Duovid is interesting because the 8x now takes a back seat to the 12x configuration. By and large the large magnification binocs do very well.

Finally, the chart for r=1 is an extreme case where the resting pupil is very small. This could be induced by age, or in very bright ambient light. Basically, all the high magnification bins become "relatively" brighter than lower mag bins. [Possibly this is a reason why older folks like higher magnifications.]

This static analysis continues to enhance my understanding of how all three design factors jointly influence brightness. Fortunately, it also tends to support those like me who prefer 10x40/42 bins over a wide range of viewing conditions.

But there are still shortcomings, even if this model is generally correct. One issue is that the eye is designed to maintain some optimal level of retinal illumination by dynamic control of the pupil. Another is that just like a camera the retinal image is clearer and has greater depth of focus with a smaller pupil (hence, we stop down a lens for a clearer photo).

Sorry for such a long complicated post. Boredom must have set in. I'd be happy to discuss any questions or send the spreadsheet out via email.

-elkcub B :)
 

Attachments

  • ATOMIC'S ANALYSIS r=1.pdf
    30.7 KB · Views: 158
  • ATOMIC'S ANALYSIS r=3.2.pdf
    30.7 KB · Views: 160
  • ATOMIC'S ANALYSIS r=6.pdf
    31 KB · Views: 175
Last edited:
elkcub,

Thanks for the great info! I'm grateful that you took the time to do the analysis, I'd be very interested in running other binoculars through your program in the future.

I've been doing a lot of binocular testing this evening, I'm about to make a post about the results.

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
Atomic Chicken said:
elkcub,

Thanks for the great info! I'm grateful that you took the time to do the analysis, I'd be very interested in running other binoculars through your program in the future.

I've been doing a lot of binocular testing this evening, I'm about to make a post about the results.

Best wishes,
Bawko

Bawko,

My pleasure, and I'll be delighted to run other binocs for you. Like all other evaluations, these are made under "other factors being equal" assumptions. Nonetheless, I'd also be interested if any of these conclusions are support or contradict your own observations. Thanks,

elkcub
 
Bawko,

I'd like to copy some of this to my "Picking the (B)Right Binoculars" thread. Hope you don't mind. Let me know if it's okay. Thanks,

-elk
 
Atomic Chicken said:
Greetings!

First off, the Alpin 8x42 seemed inordinately bright and clear considering it's $249 local price, easily equalling the Pentax SP 8x42 at close to twice the price and completely conquering all other 8x42 binoculars under $400. I had never looked at this brand before, always overlooking them in the past because of their low cost and constant sales tags - I always thought "they must be crap to be on sale all the time!". I am happy to report that I was wrong, and that they really are worth a look if you are in search of low-end binoculars that really perform.

Bawko
OK, Bawko
I was thinking about getting a new pair, and was considering the Alpin 8x42. I'll probably get them now. Thanks.
marcus
 
Warning! This thread is more than 20 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top