Is the best roof in the world better optically than the best porro? (1 Viewer)

[brocknroller]

There is another aspect that should be considered. Some people, like myself, find a flat field to be disorienting due its influence on depth perception or something related. I never could adapt to it with my 8x32 SE and the SV essentially offers the same problem. So I found the SLC to be ideal and thank Swarovski for recognizing the need for a choice

Ed

Okay, then, we'll put you down as Pro Choice. :scribe:

<B>

 

[Torview]

It should!

I should have elaborated my point somewhat. We read of many potential users (not optic obsessives like us on here) proudly proclaiming "after trying all the Alpha`s the Swaro was clearly the sharpest", maybe these user are`nt aware of or care about that extra .5 magnification, or the effect this will have on visible detail.

This seems to be a brilliant bit of marketing by Swaro, and always strikes me as strange non of the competition has done the same.

Could a slight increase over quoted power across the SV range be the secret SV formula ?

 

[pompadour]

As I've being saying in BF ad nauseam, you just cannot compare an 8x |<| and |>| an 8.5x. (This doesn't seem to deter some, including AllBinos, from trying! |:S|) Pl. note I say nothing |:x| about my assessment or opinion of Swarovski bins - my exprc. of new models is simply inadequate |=(|, though this should change v. soon |^|. If a model of theirs is the best acc. to most who have also tried out the alternatives then that is that |8)|. (Except, of course, Zeiss is definitely better, as Lee knows, Leica is certainly superior, as others are aware... ||)

 

[dalat]

Ok, I've read that several times: "once you got used to the sharp-edges" you don't want to miss that any more, "your brain likes it" and so on.
The guys raving about the new Zeiss HT sound similar: you only really start to appreciate its superior quality after some time of use in difficult light situations.

I see two possible explainations for this phenoma:
1) The brains of buyers of 2000 € binos soon produce plenty of reasons to push aside any remaining concerns about the insanity of the purchase
2) It is true, it takes prolonged time and use to really appreciate the qualities of top binos. Which makes it quite difficult to make an informed decision, unless abusing the return policy of online dealers.

I have handled the Swarovision a couple of times while being out birding with friends who have it, time was enough for me to appreciate that this is really a great bino but not enough to convince me that sharp edges is something I need to have.

 

[Troubador]

Just my usual counter to this stuff (somebody has to do it ). The SV edges are great. Here's how it works. Your brain knows the sharpness is there, registers it immediately, likes it. And the SV eyepiece design allows you to look around and use more of it. I do it all the time. It works. It feels incredibly natural.

Maybe people don't realize how functional those edges are until they've seen them and used them for a while, then tried to go back. Rather a disappointing experience.

Mark

Hi Mark

Well I can't deny you make a strong case for the sharp edges and I really tried to find this effect for myself at the Bird Fair. This was the first time I really gave the SV a proper looking through but I have to say I didn't find the magic edges compelling. A beautiful view, to be sure, but I wasn't bewitched by the edges.

I wasn't hit by Rolling Ball by the way. The first time I panned I had a fleeting impression of the the world distorting but almost as soon as I registered this the effect disappeared. Presumably, my over-worked brain employed an under-utilised sub-routine to tune the effect out.

I have used FLs now for nine years so I know them inside out and they work for me and for my applications.

So for me the Swaro EL SV 8x32 remains a first class alpha bin that anyone would be proud to own and delighted to use, but its not the only first class alpha out there. Other flavours have their own special appeal too.

Lee

 

[[email protected]]

Ok, I've read that several times: "once you got used to the sharp-edges" you don't want to miss that any more, "your brain likes it" and so on.
The guys raving about the new Zeiss HT sound similar: you only really start to appreciate its superior quality after some time of use in difficult light situations.

I see two possible explainations for this phenoma:
1) The brains of buyers of 2000 € binos soon produce plenty of reasons to push aside any remaining concerns about the insanity of the purchase
2) It is true, it takes prolonged time and use to really appreciate the qualities of top binos. Which makes it quite difficult to make an informed decision, unless abusing the return policy of online dealers.

I have handled the Swarovision a couple of times while being out birding with friends who have it, time was enough for me to appreciate that this is really a great bino but not enough to convince me that sharp edges is something I need to have.

It could also work in reverse. You have convinced yourself you don't need the sharp edges because you can't or don't want to spend the $2K. I assure you once you have them for a length of time you WILL miss the sharp edges.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Mark

Well I can't deny you make a strong case for the sharp edges and I really tried to find this effect for myself at the Bird Fair. This was the first time I really gave the SV a proper looking through but I have to say I didn't find the magic edges compelling. A beautiful view, to be sure, but I wasn't bewitched by the edges.

I wasn't hit by Rolling Ball by the way. The first time I panned I had a fleeting impression of the the world distorting but almost as soon as I registered this the effect disappeared. Presumably, my over-worked brain employed an under-utilised sub-routine to tune the effect out.

I have used FLs now for nine years so I know them inside out and they work for me and for my applications.

So for me the Swaro EL SV 8x32 remains a first class alpha bin that anyone would be proud to own and delighted to use, but its not the only first class alpha out there. Other flavours have their own special appeal too.

Lee

The FL's definitely work but I assure you they are behind in technology compared to the Swarovision's. The EDG's are a little better than the FL's and the Swarovision's are a little better than the EDG's. Once you got used to the Swarovision's you would find it hard to go back to your FL's.

 

[[email protected]]

I should have elaborated my point somewhat. We read of many potential users (not optic obsessives like us on here) proudly proclaiming "after trying all the Alpha`s the Swaro was clearly the sharpest", maybe these user are`nt aware of or care about that extra .5 magnification, or the effect this will have on visible detail.

This seems to be a brilliant bit of marketing by Swaro, and always strikes me as strange non of the competition has done the same.

Could a slight increase over quoted power across the SV range be the secret SV formula ?

That very well could be. Interesting theory. Thee is no other 8.5x alpha binocular on the market that I know of.

 

[[email protected]]

The instrument should not diminish or intrude on the experience. Hopefully, it becomes transparent. Many users, as Swarovski engineers know well, find soft edges distracting. Others don't. Hence the SV and SLC.

Dennis is absolutely correct. Some people, once they experience sharp edges, will never go back. I know we won't.

I think that is exactly Swarovski's intent. Perfectly said.

 

[[email protected]]

Only if you are more interested in the binocular than in what you are looking at!

What?

 

[Torview]

The FL's definitely work but I assure you they are behind in technology compared to the Swarovision's. The EDG's are a little better than the FL's and the Swarovision's are a little better than the EDG's. Once you got used to the Swarovision's you would find it hard to go back to your FL's.

I think you should qualify "behind in technology", Zeiss choose not to employ field flatteners, the FL is equal to anything in CA control and better than any 32mm roof in transmission.

It seems like only yesterday you were assuring us all that when Allbinos finally tested the 32mm EDG it would trounce the SV.

Somehow the EDG has lost its lustre for you a second time now, after first losing out to the SE.

 

[Kammerdiner]

Hi Mark

Well I can't deny you make a strong case for the sharp edges and I really tried to find this effect for myself at the Bird Fair. This was the first time I really gave the SV a proper looking through but I have to say I didn't find the magic edges compelling. A beautiful view, to be sure, but I wasn't bewitched by the edges.

I wasn't hit by Rolling Ball by the way. The first time I panned I had a fleeting impression of the the world distorting but almost as soon as I registered this the effect disappeared. Presumably, my over-worked brain employed an under-utilised sub-routine to tune the effect out.

I have used FLs now for nine years so I know them inside out and they work for me and for my applications.

So for me the Swaro EL SV 8x32 remains a first class alpha bin that anyone would be proud to own and delighted to use, but its not the only first class alpha out there. Other flavours have their own special appeal too.

Lee

Lee, indeed, I've had the FL for about five years now and for maybe two of those it was the only 32mm I used. And frankly I'm certain I could go back to using it again. Sure I like the SV better, but that doesn't mean I couldn't live without it. It's not that big a deal. What I like for birding and what I need for birding are two different things. I've said this before, if the only bino I had was my Zen 8x43 ED2 I'd be a happy camper. It's plenty good enough to go birding with.

In fact, I sometimes wonder, if I had to do this optics thing over again, if I would even bother playing around with binos. Seems silly sometimes, when you can just go birding instead. :t:

Mark

 

[Hermann]

Is it only me, or does Dennis really increasingly sound like a religious fanatic of some sort?

Hermann

 

[OsageArcher]

Is it only me, or does Dennis really increasingly sound like a religious fanatic of some sort?

Hermann

Please, there is no need in this thread to gratuitously insult religious fanatics! :eek!:

 

[ceasar]

I agree. Once you learn to utilize the sharp edges you miss not having them. You have to learn how to use them though if you haven't had them.

"You have to learn to use them if you haven't had them."

Now that is profound!:-O:3:-O

All you have to do is move your eyeballs around in their sockets while you are using a binocular that has "sharp edges."|<| |>| |:S| || |^|

 

[james holdsworth]

I think you should qualify "behind in technology", Zeiss choose not to employ field flatteners, the FL is equal to anything in CA control and better than any 32mm roof in transmission.

It seems like only yesterday you were assuring us all that when Allbinos finally tested the 32mm EDG it would trounce the SV.

Somehow the EDG has lost its lustre for you a second time now, after first losing out to the SE.

You have to remember that Dennis's go-to, one-and-only alpha [at one point] was the Zeiss 8x32 FL. Waffles more than a Denny's at breakfast........

 

[Kammerdiner]

"You have to learn to use them if you haven't had them."

Now that is profound!:-O:3:-O

All you have to do is move your eyeballs around in their sockets while you are using a binocular that has "sharp edges."|<| |>| |:S| || |^|

Yes, the learning curve is not too steep. I suppose one could say, at least initially, you might continue in mostly moving the binocular instead of your eyes. Then you realize, hey, I can just look around some if I want to. I suppose it may be a little counterintuitive.

And it's not like you can look all the way to the edges or anything--you'll get blackouts just like any bino. But you will find yourself roaming over a pretty big chunk of the view with no need to reposition a sweet spot or experience a blackout. It feels really natural, especially when looking over flocks of shorebirds for instance. Hey, there's a Short-Billed Dowitcher over there!

As for Dennis, I'm beginning to think he enjoys the abuse. It will be interesting to see where he goes next in his neverending ramble through binoculardom. Well, exasperating anyway.

Mark

 

[soultime]

Only if you are more interested in the binocular than in what you are looking at!

What?

There may be a clue in the name Birdforum

 

[ceasar]

There may be a clue in the name Birdforum

:t: :t: to that!

 

[steve@37n84w]

You have to remember that Dennis's go-to, one-and-only alpha [at one point] was the Zeiss 8x32 FL. Waffles more than a Denny's at breakfast........

I remember his 8x32 FL phase very well. He ridiculed me for saying I preferred my 7x42 EDG overall to 8x42 FL because I liked the view in the EDG better at night where its field flattener lenses provided pin point stars almost to the edge of the fov. He said birders didn't need field flattener lenses which were nothing more than "gimmicks just like circus mirrors". When Dennis proclaims his latest love the "best" binocular none of us regulars take heed at all, it's just the latest episode "Dennis being Dennis".

As far as the original question asked at the beginning of this thread I would say that most of the objective members on the forum would answer no. The truth is the best roofs in the world aren't better optically than the best porros; however, the alpha roofs are usually better in all the other factors that make a great birding bino.

The alpha roofs are waterproof and the effort needed to focus them varies little under cold weather conditions which are problematic for many porros. The alpha roofs also focus much closer than most porros and I must admit that even though I love my porros I often take a roof just for this reason--bugs, butterflies, and flowers make some interesting subjects when viewed up close at 6x-8x magnification.

The alpha roofs are usually a much better ergonomic fits for most users and the simple fact they offer twist up eyecups makes them much more versatile than the average porro. When traveling by myself I'm perfectly happy with one of my porros but when my wife is accompanying me I always opt for a roof. When one user wears glasses and the other doesn't twist up eyecups are a virtual necessity.

I know this thread has morphed into a "my bino is better than your bino" (or in this particular case "my roof is better than your roof because mine has field flattener lens elements") as Dennis's threads almost alway do but I would like to address the original question asked in the tittle of this thread. When it comes down to the optical performance of the best roofs versus the best porros I would have to answer that no the roofs aren't any better. As I mentioned above the alpha roofs offer many features that may make them a better overall choice but superior optics isn't one of them.

Steve