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Hi Ali,

Thanks for the kind words. Like you I started off curious and wanting coherent and detailed explanations of some basic ideas.
As I've remarked elsewhere, I'm amazed at what's available on the net with a bit of sustained digging
- especially images that economically illustrate a point.


John
 
While Schmidt-Pechan prisms are unique in requiring the two facing surfaces to be separated, to enable both the transmission and reflection functions, there is more to consider.
Firstly, there is a third combined transmission/ reflection surface on the S-P pair i.e. there are two such surfaces on the Schmidt prism.

And other roof prisms may have none, one or two combined function surfaces. So a consideration for optics designers:
• None: Abbe-Koenig; Hensoldt Penta, and; Ludewig (a combined prism and mirror)
• One: Sprenger-Leman (and a variation: Moller Theatis), and; Moller Tourix [a Hensoldt Penta variation] (and variations of the Moller: Zeiss Telita I and Telita II)
• Two: Uppendahl
• Three: Schmidt-Pechan
See the images in the first link in post #57 above.

- - - -
Particularly in relation to Schmidt-Pechan prisms . . .

In 1991, the article 'Progress in binocular design' was published by Konrad Seil, who was then working at Swarovski Optik *
Konrad demonstrated how a single layer of anti-reflective coating on the combined transmission/ reflection surfaces, was the best choice in terms of optimising the image (see pages 55 and 56).

Then in 2008, Swarovski published a diagram showing the coatings on the optics of the SLC 7x42 **
As can be seen, it shows 3 layers of coating on each of the combined function surfaces. So unsurprisingly there had been progress on the issue. And the diagram also shows at least 3 layers on each transmission surface - both on the lenses and prisms.

However, this does not mean that the same 3 layers are used on all of the surfaces (optical engineers have a wide range of coatings to draw from). One obvious example is that on many binoculars the objective and eyepiece surfaces clearly show different coloured reflections.

So it’s likely that the 3 layers on the combined function surfaces of the prisms are specifically designed to better address the reflection/ transmission problem, then was possible back in the early 1990’s (perhaps each coating has a narrow band width addressing a specific portion of the visible spectrum?).

- - - -
In addition, the table with the SLC diagram distinguishes between:
• the 3 layers of A-R coating applied to the internal surfaces, described as Swarotop, and
• the 4 layers applied to the two external surfaces, described collectively as Swarodur.

A page on the recently updated Swarovski website has the following:
'What is Swarotop and Swarodur?
. . . These two coatings are used on all lenses and prisms in Swarovski Optik long-range optical devices.
Swarodur is the sum of all external coatings.
Swarotop is the sum of all coatings on the internal lenses and prisms, optimized to ensure maximum light transmission and excellent color rendering.'
See at: My Service

We know that Swarodur indicates a hard protective coating applied to external lens surfaces. However, it may be that the 3 lower layers that would normally just provide an A-R function, also need to be significantly modified to enable the top layer to fulfil its abrasion and impact resistance functions (e.g. while the top layer may hold up to a certain level of stress, conventional lower A-R layers might come away from the glass?)

- - - -
The text added to the bottom of the SLC diagram reads via Google Translate as:
'Swaroclean is a lens outer surface coating, which makes cleaning objective and eyepiece lenses much easier, especially when they come into contact with dried-on mineral residues (water stains), insect repellant and tree resin. Due to the improved cleanability, the lenses do not have to be cleaned as intensively in order to achieve optimal clarity. This significantly increases the longevity of the optical products.'

As Swaroclean was introduced in 2007, the diagram would predate its introduction (and Swaroclean would be a 5th and outermost layer on the two external surfaces).

While on its introduction Swaroclean was applied to most products, this did not include the Habicht Porro prism binoculars. And since then it has not been used on some new introductions such as the various CL lines.

Most significantly, correspondence that retired2021 has recently received from Swarovski, indicates that the use of Swaroclean was discontinued in 2020:
. . .
-quote - Swarovski gives top priority to sustainable products and reduction of environmental impact during their manufacture. Therefore the SWAROCLEAN coating is no longer applied to all SWAROVSKI OPTIK products. With this step all coatings become PFC-free. This change does not affect the optical quality of the product or its service life. The NL PURE series has been without SWAROCLEEAN since the beginning of production. For the EL binoculars, the coating was changed over in the course of 2020. – unquote-.
. . .


So hopefully some more points of interest.


John


* The 13 page article can be downloaded at: https://wp.optics.arizona.edu/optomech/wp-content/uploads/sites/53/2016/10/Seil-1991.pdf

** The diagram is from Zielsicher Leitfaden Hochwertiger Jagdoptik (‘Reliable guide to high quality hunting optics’). The 28 page booklet can be found at: ZIELSICHER LEITFADEN HOCHWERTIGER JAGDOPTIK - PDF Kostenfreier Download However there does not seem to have been an English counterpart.
 

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[quoting Swaro] "Due to the improved cleanability, the lenses do not have to be cleaned as intensively in order to achieve optimal clarity. This significantly increases the longevity of the optical products."
[quoting retired2021 quoting Swaro] "Therefore the SWAROCLEAN coating is no longer applied to all SWAROVSKI OPTIK products... This change does not affect the optical quality of the product or its service life."
We can wonder about that last bit then. (Or was it a bit of a stretch the first time around?)
 
We can wonder about that last bit then. (Or was it a bit of a stretch the first time around?)
Also unclear is whether Swarovski discontinued the use of special protective coatings on external lens surfaces or whether SwaroClean has been replaced by some other treatment not yet trademarked or specifically marketed.
 
Also unclear is whether Swarovski discontinued the use of special protective coatings on external lens surfaces or whether SwaroClean has been replaced by some other treatment not yet trademarked or specifically marketed.
What's been told to me is that the coating is discontinued due to health/environmental reasons and won't be replaced in the near future with another look-a-like coating. One could ask himself why the other brands don't follow.
Who to believe......

Jan
 
Stevenkelby, post 68,
That is a nice comparison, but optically indifferent layers to prevent scratichg and make cleaning more easy is of course very pleasant but it is not essential in any way for the use of binoculars. If you look at all the military binoculars used for decades without these optically indifferent layers: I have seen a lot and despite the harsh using conditions the lenses were still perfectly OK.
So in my opinion it is a nice addition but certanly not essential.
O by the way: soap can be used after giving birth, but I have also seen the use of luke warm water, worked also well.
Gijs van Ginkel
 
That is a nice comparison, but optically indifferent layers to prevent scratichg and make cleaning more easy is of course very pleasant but it is not essential in any way for the use of binoculars. If you look at all the military binoculars used for decades without these optically indifferent layers: I have seen a lot and despite the harsh using conditions the lenses were still perfectly OK.
So in my opinion it is a nice addition but certanly not essential.
O by the way: soap can be used after giving birth, but I have also seen the use of luke warm water, worked also well.
Gijs van Ginkel
All else being equal and no impact on image quality most consumers (me included) would likely prefer a protective coating on external lens surfaces. Once marketed as a distinct and trademarked advantage it is quite curious to now be “meh!”
 
While Schmidt-Pechan prisms are unique in requiring the two facing surfaces to be separated, to enable both the transmission and reflection functions, there is more to consider.
Firstly, there is a third combined transmission/ reflection surface on the S-P pair i.e. there are two such surfaces on the Schmidt prism.

And other roof prisms may have none, one or two combined function surfaces. So a consideration for optics designers:
• None: Abbe-Koenig; Hensoldt Penta, and; Ludewig (a combined prism and mirror)
• One: Sprenger-Leman (and a variation: Moller Theatis), and; Moller Tourix [a Hensoldt Penta variation] (and variations of the Moller: Zeiss Telita I and Telita II)
• Two: Uppendahl
• Three: Schmidt-Pechan
See the images in the first link in post #57 above.

- - - -
Particularly in relation to Schmidt-Pechan prisms . . .

In 1991, the article 'Progress in binocular design' was published by Konrad Seil, who was then working at Swarovski Optik *
Konrad demonstrated how a single layer of anti-reflective coating on the combined transmission/ reflection surfaces, was the best choice in terms of optimising the image (see pages 55 and 56).

Then in 2008, Swarovski published a diagram showing the coatings on the optics of the SLC 7x42 **
As can be seen, it shows 3 layers of coating on each of the combined function surfaces. So unsurprisingly there had been progress on the issue. And the diagram also shows at least 3 layers on each transmission surface - both on the lenses and prisms.

However, this does not mean that the same 3 layers are used on all of the surfaces (optical engineers have a wide range of coatings to draw from). One obvious example is that on many binoculars the objective and eyepiece surfaces clearly show different coloured reflections.

So it’s likely that the 3 layers on the combined function surfaces of the prisms are specifically designed to better address the reflection/ transmission problem, then was possible back in the early 1990’s (perhaps each coating has a narrow band width addressing a specific portion of the visible spectrum?).

- - - -
In addition, the table with the SLC diagram distinguishes between:
• the 3 layers of A-R coating applied to the internal surfaces, described as Swarotop, and
• the 4 layers applied to the two external surfaces, described collectively as Swarodur.

A page on the recently updated Swarovski website has the following:
'What is Swarotop and Swarodur?
. . . These two coatings are used on all lenses and prisms in Swarovski Optik long-range optical devices.
Swarodur is the sum of all external coatings.
Swarotop is the sum of all coatings on the internal lenses and prisms, optimized to ensure maximum light transmission and excellent color rendering.'
See at: My Service

We know that Swarodur indicates a hard protective coating applied to external lens surfaces. However, it may be that the 3 lower layers that would normally just provide an A-R function, also need to be significantly modified to enable the top layer to fulfil its abrasion and impact resistance functions (e.g. while the top layer may hold up to a certain level of stress, conventional lower A-R layers might come away from the glass?)

- - - -
The text added to the bottom of the SLC diagram reads via Google Translate as:
'Swaroclean is a lens outer surface coating, which makes cleaning objective and eyepiece lenses much easier, especially when they come into contact with dried-on mineral residues (water stains), insect repellant and tree resin. Due to the improved cleanability, the lenses do not have to be cleaned as intensively in order to achieve optimal clarity. This significantly increases the longevity of the optical products.'

As Swaroclean was introduced in 2007, the diagram would predate its introduction (and Swaroclean would be a 5th and outermost layer on the two external surfaces).

While on its introduction Swaroclean was applied to most products, this did not include the Habicht Porro prism binoculars. And since then it has not been used on some new introductions such as the various CL lines.

Most significantly, correspondence that retired2021 has recently received from Swarovski, indicates that the use of Swaroclean was discontinued in 2020:



So hopefully some more points of interest.


John


* The 13 page article can be downloaded at: https://wp.optics.arizona.edu/optomech/wp-content/uploads/sites/53/2016/10/Seil-1991.pdf

** The diagram is from Zielsicher Leitfaden Hochwertiger Jagdoptik (‘Reliable guide to high quality hunting optics’). The 28 page booklet can be found at: ZIELSICHER LEITFADEN HOCHWERTIGER JAGDOPTIK - PDF Kostenfreier Download However there does not seem to have been an English counterpart.
Thanks for this John.

Very informative

Cheers
Tim
 
If you look at all the military binoculars used for decades without these optically indifferent layers: I have seen a lot and despite the harsh using conditions the lenses were still perfectly OK.

I have to admit that comes as a surprise to me. The discipline paid by members of the Dutch armed forces to maintaining their optics must be exemplary.
 
Patudo, post 76,
You are absolutely right about the Dutch armed forces. However, the military binoculars I mentioned were mostly from German, Russian and anglo-Saxon military we have investigated or checked. Of course we sometimes found mistreated ones, but that is the risk of this kind of activities.
Gijs van Ginkel
 
Patudo, post 76,
You are absolutely right about the Dutch armed forces. However, the military binoculars I mentioned were mostly from German, Russian and anglo-Saxon military we have investigated or checked. Of course we sometimes found mistreated ones, but that is the risk of this kind of activities.
Gijs van Ginkel
I have a reduced experience of binoculars, but I have worn eyeglasses for about 60 years. My latest pair is the cheapest I could get, no coating, and has survived 10 years in decent state. Previous expensive, coated and "thin" pairs with the 6 or so dioptries of correction for my myopia were less lucky. I think maybe the cheaper glass is less scratchable? Interestingly, this is the second "identical" pair, the first one yellowed after a few years and this one did not.

What I'm trying to say is that possibly the military binoculars were designed with tough glass at either end, and that "expensive performance optics" are expected to be treated more gently.

I have been told that on expensive Canon telephotos the visible objective is actually a protective glass.

Edmund
 
I have a reduced experience of binoculars, but I have worn eyeglasses for about 60 years. My latest pair is the cheapest I could get, no coating, and has survived 10 years in decent state. Previous expensive, coated and "thin" pairs with the 6 or so dioptries of correction for my myopia were less lucky. I think maybe the cheaper glass is less scratchable? Interestingly, this is the second "identical" pair, the first one yellowed after a few years and this one did not.

What I'm trying to say is that possibly the military binoculars were designed with tough glass at either end, and that "expensive performance optics" are expected to be treated more gently.

I have been told that on expensive Canon telephotos the visible objective is actually a protective glass.

Edmund
Edmund,

I think that optical designers will give priority to the optical properties and would not shy from using a soft flint glass in the outer elements of eyepiece or objective if it met their requirements. If Swarovski and Meopta are to be believed, their outer coatings are harder than the glass substrate, though significantly less than a micrometre thick.
If you are using uncoated spectacle lenses then you are sacrificing around 8% transmission, not to speak of the effects of glare if driving at night. My multicoated CR-39 spectacle lenses are over four years old and are pristine having survived about 1500 cleanings.
Go get yourself some new multicoated Trivex lenses, clean them under running water with a drop of liqid soap between your finger tips and dab them dry with a fresh cosmetic tissue.

John
 
Wish List—Would like to see Swarovski throw in a forehead rest for free with purchase of NL Pure 42 or 32! Start it on October 1 until after Christmas. If that happens I’ll pick up a 12x42. Great incentive, but Swarovski is selling everyone they make. You did say Wish List!
 
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