Harmonizing North American and British Bird Names (1 Viewer)

I'm quite new to BF. I imagine this has come up for discussion before but I was wondering how people feel about making the English language bird names the same on both sides of the Atlantic, e.g. have only one name for each of Black-bellied/Grey Plover, Red/Grey Phalarope, Bank Swallow/Sand Martin, Oldsquaw/Long-tailed Duck. Wait a minute - that last one's already been done (somewhat to my chagrin)! Is this the "thin edge of the wedge", i.e. part of a gradual changeover to British names for our North American birds that are also found in the Old World? Does anyone have any inside information as to whether the AOU is contemplating something like this? Personally I wouldn't really mind except that I can't imagine calling loons divers, the loon (with that name) being such a symbol of Canada. Is international consistency in names indeed desirable? If so, how would British birders feel, in a spirit of compromise, about changing some of their long-standing names?

Hi Mattpau: I had the same problem when I got here starting with the loon After many good natured debates on the loon/northern diver issue I just accept that it's the same bird.Some here have chosen to use the scientific names to communicate a specie.So now a loon is a gavia immer also.Be prepared to look at those long neglected latin name pages in the back of your field guide.Thanks for reminding me that the loon is your national bird.I always look forward to its passing through Ohio on migration.
Sam

Well Paul,

This Welsh birder doesn't mind using whatever names I can remember to make visiting birders feel at home! I was also quite happy to use Bank Swallow etc. when birding southern Ont. a few years ago; same goes for birdng in Europe, I'm reasonably happy to use the scientific names or badly whistled renditions of bird calls to keep a conversation going. I may be in the minority.....

Andy.

Can we get Canada Jay back? Or at least Whisky Jack? Gray Jay seems so dull.

I like Andy's "When in Rome" philosophy, with a heavy leaning toward using the scientific names. Problem is, even there there's no agreement straight across the board.

I'd be afraid if one region adops the common names of another, what happens when either ornithological authority decides to change the common name for what seems like the most capricious of reasons? Why, it could start wars!

I think that any attempt at 'universalisation' (is that a word?) is destined to fail. It has been tried many times in many areas and I can't think of a single success story (does anyone speak Esperanto as a first language?) I think the answer is to be aware of the differences and when necessary take account of them. It's not that difficult, after all!

David FG said:

I think that any attempt at 'universalisation' (is that a word?) is destined to fail. It has been tried many times in many areas and I can't think of a single success story (does anyone speak Esperanto as a first language?) I think the answer is to be aware of the differences and when necessary take account of them. It's not that difficult, after all!

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Yes, I agree, David. I can't really see any need for attempting to "universalise" (if enough of us use it, it'll be a word, anyway!) common names. Learning the different names is part of the fun. And as has been pointed out, we do have the scientific names to fall back on.

It's interesting to find birders in North America fearing an 'Anglo-cisation' of their familiar names since I've generally only heard of the issue the 'other way round'. Of course, many of the 'peculiar' american names merely reflect common usage in the UK in the 1800s before names were standardised. Unfortunately the standardisation wasn't co-ordinated! I can't see why those relatively few birds with alternative names can't be listed under both in indexes and on headings. The one that REALLY annoys me, though, is we Brits being lumbered with Monk/Cinereous Vulture instead of the long established Black Vulture. 'Our' bird is a genuine vulture whereas the American version is not really a proper 'BoP' but descended from storks! No, our American friends should rename their beasts Common Turkey-Vulture and Black Turkey-Vulture! John

Differences in English names add to the fun of birding in the US and elsewhere - scientific names are for standerisation. On a pelagic of Monterey people kept saying Red Phalarope which is certainly confusing for UK birders. They then compared a Cassin's Auklet to shapped like a football - not our football certainly! Lingustic differences can also increase the size of your list, for several years I had Black Kite under two different names!

ground-roller said:

Differences in English names add to the fun of birding in the US and elsewhere - scientific names are for standerisation.

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I agree, hence my "When in Rome" comment above. When I was in Germany and Wales last year, and again in Italy this year, it was a very simple matter to print out a list of the common names' differences for the same species and tuck it into the back of my Birds of Europe field guide.

Frankly, I have a lot more trouble deciphering some of the BF posts where common names are further distilled and known only to local birders. The easier ones that can be figured out are, in the case of you UK lot, sprawk, barwit, blackwit, etc., but where the heck you get "spruggie" or "spuggie" for a house sparrow sent me googling forever the first time I saw it. :bounce:

but where the heck you get "spruggie" or "spuggie" for a house sparrow sent me googling forever the first time I saw it.

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We call them "Spadgers" in Manchester, England !

And then there's the case where the same English common name refers to different species, e.g., coot.... as I was recently reminded on BF. Such fun! Barbara

I totally agree with John about Black Vulture. Black Turkey-vulture for the American bird sounds entirely fair to me! But otherwise I agree with Katy. My North Americam trip lists tell me I've seen Mew Gulls and Common Loons, not Common Gulls and Geat Northern Divers.

Rob Smallwood said:

We call them "Spadgers" in Manchester, England !

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Yikes! What is *that,* a sparrow-badger hybrid?

See, we haven't got a hope of bridging the gap of (mis)understanding!

It seems that the majority opinion of posters is that we don't need standard common names for both sides of the pond - that's what the scientific names are for. Actually I suspect that some species' North American and European scientific names aren't always the same either, as presumably the bodies that decide these things do not always make the same taxonomic choice. However, I realize that, while I've certainly birded in Europe, I know nothing about who decides the common names and taxonomy over there. I assume that there's an equivalent to the American Ornithologists' Union (AOU), but could someone tell me who it is?

I admit that I thought more people would say "change our British names over my dead body!", or words to that effect - nice to see that people are prepared to be conciliatory! I was pretty surprised that the one bird name mentioned that people were upset about was that of a vulture. Ironically this seems to have come about not through the desire to standardize the name of the same species but to differentiate between two species. Can't see why we couldn't keep Black Vulture for both and just add a geographical modifier.

Kevin Mac mentioned the dullness of the name Grey (or Gray) Jay. Although this name wasn't chosen because of Old World considerations (to my knowledge Perisoreus canadensis doesn't occur outside the Western hemisphere), it highlights what I perceive as a general "problem" - the propensity to choose boring morphological descriptors for bird names. I'm trying to learn the neotropical birds and wish there were more interesting names. And when a quaint name is a possibility it seems to be suppressed, e.g. Brownish Twistwing (coined by Robert Ridgely?) became boring old Brownish Flycatcher on the AOU list. Boooh! A topic for another thread, no doubt.

Returning to the subject at hand, part of me wants standard names internationally because having multiple names is "messy". Some have suggested multiple names is an advantage as it can get you a longer list. And here I was thinking that this was a disadvantage! Oh the pain of having to remove one of Snowy or Kentish Plover from your list because, after many years, you've discovered they're the same bird. Another more iconoclastic part of me likes the fact that there's variation in the names - makes things more interesting, colourful.

A number of people mentioned that there weren't many species involved. But how many are there? Using the very latest North American list (7th edition AOU checklist with 45th supplement) on the one hand, and an ancient copy of Bruun and Singer's Birds of Europe (bought in late 70's(?) for $6.95 hardcover) I came up with the following. No doubt the European info is a little out of date! If you spot errors, please let me know. (Have not bothered listing names where the only difference is the North American version uses the modifiers Common, Eurasian or European)

Brant/Brent Goose
Tundra Swan/Bewick’s Swan
Green-winged Teal/Teal
Greater Scaup/Scaup
White-winged Scoter/Velvet Scoter
Black Scoter/Common Scoter
Common Merganser/Goosander
Gray Partridge/Partridge
Willow Ptarmigan/Willow Grouse
Rock Ptarmigan/Ptarmigan
Red-throated Loon/Red-throated Diver
Arctic Loon/Black-throated Diver
Common Loon/Great Northern Diver
Yellow-billed Loon/White-billed Diver
Horned Grebe/Slavonian Grebe
Northern Fulmar/Fulmar
Northern Gannet/Gannet
Great Cormorant/Cormorant
Great Egret/Great White Heron
Black-crowned Night-Heron/Night Heron
Northern Harrier/Hen Harrier
Northern Goshawk/Goshawk
Northern Lapwing/Lapwing
Black-bellied Plover/Grey Plover
Snowy Plover/Kentish Plover
Ruddy Turnstone/Turnstone
Red Knot/Knot
Red Phalarope/Grey Phalarope
Pomarine Jaeger/Pomarine Skua
Parasitic Skua/Arctic Skua
Long-tailed Jaeger/Long-tailed Skua
Mew Gull/Common Gull
Black-legged Kittiwake/Kittiwake
White-winged Tern/White-winged Black Tern
Dovekie/Little Auk
Common Murre/Guillemot
Thick-billed Murre/Brünnich’s Guillemot
Atlantic Puffin/Puffin
Rock Pigeon/Rock Dove
Boreal Owl/Tengmalm’s Owl
Northern Shrike/Great Grey Shrike
Horned Lark/Shore Lark
Bank Swallow/Sand Martin
Barn Swallow/Swallow
Gray-Headed Chickadee/Siberian Tit
Winter Wren/Wren
Northern Wheatear/Wheatear
Lapland Longspur/Lapland Bunting
Red Crossbill/Crossbill
White-winged Crossbill/Two-barred Crossbill
Hoary Redpoll/Arctic Redpoll

A couple of things sprang to mind reading that list (there may be more)

mattpau said:

Green-winged Teal/Teal

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In the UK we have

Green-winged Teal - Anas carolinensis
Common Teal - Anas crecca

These were split a few years ago, although it was considered a bit dubious and they may be lumped again.

mattpau said:

Horned Grebe/Slavonian Grebe

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Eared Grebe/Black-necked Grebe

Gonna pretty well agree with everything already said. I am 99.9% against the standardisation of common names... it's not necessary, and takes away some of the "character" of our hobby.

I'll allow 0.1% because I guess I don't really mind the additon of an epithet (is that the right word) to some of the more "generic" English names, such as Wren or Swallow, although I am likely always to call them by their simplest of names, unless pressed. Also, I have no objection to changing from Grey to Red for the Phalarope in question.

Just to pick up on one of Paul's list...

"Gray Partridge/Partridge"

... well I always use Grey Partridge for the Engilsh Partridge to distinguish it from Red-legged for the French Patridge!

mattpau said:

I know nothing about who decides the common names and taxonomy over there. I assume that there's an equivalent to the American Ornithologists' Union (AOU), but could someone tell me who it is?

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In Europe we have no single governing organisation (that I am aware of). In Britiain, the British Ornithologists Union (BOU) is probably the nearest thing to your AOU.

I have lived in El Salvador for the last 5 years and I am now far more familiar with both naming systems. For me, there is no real problem with having two names, because the scientific name sorts out any real confusion. However, there are still some names that I think are misleading. I still cannot bring myself to call a Turdus thrush a Robin. Most of the rest of the world has species of Turdus and they all call them thrushes (in English). The only reason for using the name Robin is because the American Thrush (ok, Robin) has a red breast and reminded the early setlers of the Robin back home. Its a shame that this name has now started to creep into the naming of Neotropical Turdus thrushes as well. Let the North Americans continue to call Turdus migratorius American Robin, but lets still have birds like Cley-coloured Thrush (or should that be Clay-colored?) belonging to the same group as the rest of its genus.

Tom

mattpau said:

I'm trying to learn the neotropical birds and wish there were more interesting names. And when a quaint name is a possibility it seems to be suppressed, e.g. Brownish Twistwing (coined by Robert Ridgely?) became boring old Brownish Flycatcher on the AOU list. Boooh! A topic for another thread, no doubt.

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Like this one: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=17702

Some additions to your list:

Band-rumped Storm-petrel/Madeiran Petrel
Mongolian Plover/Lesser Sand Plover
Rough-legged Hawk/Rough-legged Buzzard
Fork-tailed Swift/Pacific Swift

Bluetail said:

Mongolian Plover/Lesser Sand Plover

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The AOU recently adopted the Lesser Sand Plover name, though most North American field guides still use the Mongolian name. Glen