What matters more: The birds or the lists. (1 Viewer)

Call me crazy if you want, but I joined this forum not long ago and I got the impression that to many members that actively participate in this comunity dont really care about birds. All that seems to matter to them is their lists.
I must add that I have come across some big bird lovers and that I do understand the joy of adding a new bird to your list ( specially if it is one that your friends have not seen yet ). But people seem to watch birds just to compete with each other, not caring about bird behaviour, ecology and natural history.
I believe some of the most memorable moments I have ever had with birds came from encounters with common birds that were doing extraordinary things.
I think that we should all keep lists, because they are usefull in many ways, but it is a dangerous thing to make them more important than the birds. Because people who care more about lists tend to do anything to get the birds they "NEED" and that many times includes practices that may be harmfull to the birds.
I hope this does not turn into a mad discussion about keeping lists or not, but I hope this thread can generate a healthy debate about this matter, because I have come across several young birders on this forum and I think we need to be carefull about the examples we set.

Best Wishes to all.:t:

In this day and age, listing is in itself a hobby set aside from birding.
True that many start birding for the love of birds and get preoccupied by there lists, and thus loose sight of the original hobby.

I myself love adding to my life list as I enjoy seeing birds I've never seen before, but still go birding almost every day as weather/time allow, and participate in local surveys regularly, but can see peoples fascination with the list and have also gone to extreme lengths to add a new species. I would like to think this has never been to the detriment of the bird, but whenever birds see you and fly the other way you are to an extent harassing them are you not?

I also have no problems with listing as a hobby either, as who said a hobby needs to be beneficial or productive? listing in my mind is no worse than supporting football teams, playing computer games or watching TV, though at least listing gets them out side and a bit of exercise eh! and might even help local charities!

Hi Marcelo, if you check out the thread going on about UK lists http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=89687 I think you'll find your answer!

I recently returned for a second go at birding in the Brazilian Atlantic Rain Forest, and loved it just as much as on my previous visit, even though I'd already 'got' a lot of the birds. I didn't care though!

I spoke with a local guide who said how fed up he gets with some visiting birders who, on seeing a new bird, a really special endemic and they just say "Nice bird, on the list, next.."

Enjoy your birding.

Marcelo Padua: I can not agree more! I keep a list of all the birds I have seen (in part because of my horrible memory! :-O) and still yearn to to see new lifers. However, even the most common birds always seem to hold me captivated! The amazing acrobatic feats of the Carolina Chickadee, the lovely gloden sheen of the Prothonotary Warbler, and the wild untamed voice of the Pileated Woodpecker (all common birds in my area) always manage to put a smile on my face! Sometimes even the smallest, ugliest, or most common creature can create a sense of amazement if we will take time to look at them rather than just see them.

There are some for whom the list matters more than the birds, that's undeniable. They can be a vocal minority, but I guarantee that the vast majority of those who keep lists love, care for and are fascinated by the birds themselves. And the majority also have a serious interest in ecology and conservation.

I keep lists of the birds I've seen and I actively seek out new birds for the excitement. Another birder (and non-lister) described my listing as a "stimulus and compass to increasing their knowledge and understanding of the birds and their habitat," and I couldn't possibly put it better. Through my renewed interest in birds I have learnt a huge amount about ecology, history, geography, geology, sociology and psychology. I have learned to appreciate the world and life in a new and fuller way. And I'm very proud to have sought out, seen, identified and studied 271 species in the last twelve months in the UK - it has required patience, determination and lots of research.

Two weeks ago I watched one Wood Warbler for well over three hours. I was sat completely still and all alone in one of the very last remnants of pristine native oak wood on this island. It beats any new-age b#ll#cks for 'getting in touch with mother earth'. And I didn't 'need' Wood Warbler.

Back to those who don't care about birds but only care about their list. I think they're missing out on some of what birding can offer but so what? If they're having fun and not spoiling anyone else's, shouldn't we just live and let live?

Graham

Dougie Preston said:

.....I also have no problems with listing as a hobby either, as who said a hobby needs to be beneficial or productive? listing in my mind is no worse than supporting football teams, playing computer games or watching TV, though at least listing gets them out side and a bit of exercise eh! and might even help local charities!

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Well said Dougie. It amazes me how many people are ready to sneer at other peoples hobbies. So what if listers are little better than trainspotters - trainspotters are harmless and happy enough aren't they? Let them be....

I would like to differentiate listers from twitchers. I'm a lister but not a twitcher. I'm a local birder and active conservationist. I know twitchers who are not listers. They wan't to see new birds but have no interest in their lists.

Also, I said in the "other" thread that I enjoyed data analysis more than birding. That doesn't mean that I enjoy listing more than birds. Data analysis and recording is a vital part of conservation, and an art in itself.

Coigach said:

Well said Dougie. It amazes me how many people are ready to sneer at other peoples hobbies. So what if listers are little better than trainspotters - trainspotters are harmless and happy enough aren't they? Let them be....

I would like to differentiate listers from twitchers. I'm a lister but not a twitcher. I'm a local birder and active conservationist. I know twitchers who are not listers. They wan't to see new birds but have no interest in their lists.

Also, I said in the "other" thread that I enjoyed data analysis more than birding. That doesn't mean that I enjoy listing more than birds. Data analysis and recording is a vital part of conservation, and an art in itself.

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Dear Bobby,

I think you did not read my thread carefully enough, or my english is worst than I thought it is. I have no intention of sneering at other peoples hobbies, but I do have a legitimate concern for the examples we set to the young birders who are following the discussions on this forum. ( have you read the tread "Young birder")
I believe I was very clear in stating that I have no problems with keeping lists. I make my living as a birdwatching guide in Brazil and many of my clients are listers, therefore it would be stupid of me to dislike listers.
However we must be carefull not to put the lists in front of the birds, and it may be hard for you to understand what I mean by this because you live in a diferent reallity from mine.
I read the other thread that Dunnokev pointed out to me. Although it seems to have some relation to this matter, these are two different matters and you seem to have transported your irritation with those subjects to this thread without paying enough attention to what I wrote.
You say people who care more about lists than the birds are not hurting anybody. Just think about the example that they are setting, project it into the future and imagine that the generations to come follow their example ( watching birds withou caring about their wellbeing and conservation ) and then tell me once again that you think they are not hurting anyone.
Here is another thing for you to think about. One person going to work every day in a car with high polution emmition is not hurting anyone, but if every person on the globe could afford to do the same and wanted to.
Just think of the consequences.
Birdwatching is getting big and global, and we should start thinking about the way we conduct it, because it may become a problem instead of a solution to conservation. ( and I do believe that birdwatching has saved and can continue to save birds everywhere in the globe, lets just try to keep it that way)

Ok, don't know the answer to your question then. Sorry.

I think we might find the answer by being inclusive rather than splitting into smaller independent communities. No birds leads to no lists, so everyone has an incentive to preserve birds. Interested in the birds? Want to be able to recall days out, whether they involved 16 hours enthralled by a single species or just a glorious birdfest of enormous variety? Either way unless you're blessed with a perfect and durable memory you're best off writing it all down - and that's listing.

The birds come first - but the list isn't far behind.

John

Both. I don't study birds scientifically but i still get joy from watching blue tits or bullfinches in my back garden or seeing a kestral hover on the motorway or a grey heron fly away from my local patch. I only keep 2 lists, life and britain. Both are rubbish, but i do think there an integral part of my bird watching experiance.

Hi Marcelo,

I am a young birder, but certainly not one of those who only care for lists. I sometimes spend hours watching a Great Kiskadee, or a Sayaca Tanager, which are birds I see almost every day. And how I love to see the flight of the amazing Squirrel Cuckoo or of the Toco Toucan (hope to see them this holiday). I do keep a list, it's true, but that doesn't mean I just care for it. The birds always come first. Of course I love to see a new bird, but sometimes what saves my day is an interesting behaviour of whichever is the bird (maybe even a Rock Pigeon, who knows). As long as it is harmless, I see no problem on someone who only care for lists, although I don't think is as healthy (lack of better words, sorry) as birdwatching itself. I also think that birdwatching and list keeping often are two connected things, although the later totally depends on the former.

Cheers

jocateme said:

Hi Marcelo,

I am a young birder, but certainly not one of those who only care for lists. I sometimes spend hours watching a Great Kiskadee, or a Sayaca Tanager, which are birds I see almost every day. And how I love to see the flight of the amazing Squirrel Cuckoo or of the Toco Toucan (hope to see them this holiday). I do keep a list, it's true, but that doesn't mean I just care for it. The birds always come first. Of course I love to see a new bird, but sometimes what saves my day is an interesting behaviour of whichever is the bird (maybe even a Rock Pigeon, who knows). As long as it is harmless, I see no problem on someone who only care for lists, although I don't think is as healthy (lack of better words, sorry) as birdwatching itself. I also think that birdwatching and list keeping often are two connected things, although the later totally depends on the former.

Cheers

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This is absolutely true. I do post year and life lists in my signature currently, but I do feel the need to help out, either in hands or dollars, whichever is needed. There is one upside of listing, or rather, seeing more species of birds, is that you learn more about them than just reading about how it flies or sounds in a book. Once you have bagged a lifer, as it may be, you will never forget the distinct points about it - even if you hardly study it. It's called jizz, gizz, giss, gesalt, etc. That sharpens your IDing skills, and helps you help others. But just to see the bird to add it to a list - that's not so great. But then again, that's just becoming an encyclopedic bird brain, which isn't terrible is it?

Although I am not of age yet to do too much of working for the birds, I do what I can (donate, report to databases like Ebird, keep in touch with biologists) and I plan to work at some of my local parks when I come of age, and then hopefully become a biologist of some sort.

There is one thing I don't agree with Marcelo about though - I think the few people on this universe who have absolutely forgotten that birds need to be cared about and researched, but yearn for a humongous list have "better" places to be (Papua New Guinea comes to mind, let the cannibals have them) than in a community that cares so much like Birdforum.

birderbf said:

There is one thing I don't agree with Marcelo about though - I think the few people on this universe who have absolutely forgotten that birds need to be cared about and researched, but yearn for a humongous list have "better" places to be (Papua New Guinea comes to mind, let the cannibals have them) than in a community that cares so much like Birdforum.

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You got it backwards. You and I have the same point of view.

Hi Marcelo

I don't think there's anything wrong in keeping your own lists although, as others have said, it does get a bit silly when people start showing off and comparing lists and chasing all over the place just to add one more to their total. Still, each to his own as they say! I have 3 lists, garden, local patch and UK. Occasionally I may add one to one of the lists and it's always a thrill to spot a species you've never seen before. Oh dear, I'm getting slightly worried now. I've just made a list of my lists! I think I need to get out more! |=)|

Happy birding

Mike

Marcelo Pedua "

Call me crazy if you want, but I joined this forum not long ago and I got the impression that to many members that actively participate in this comunity dont really care about birds".

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Sorry but I think this is wrong to say about "many members". The people you talk about are not many but few...And yes they are and oddity.

birderbf said:

This is absolutely true. I do post year and life lists in my signature currently, but I do feel the need to help out, either in hands or dollars, whichever is needed. There is one upside of listing, or rather, seeing more species of birds, is that you learn more about them than just reading about how it flies or sounds in a book. Once you have bagged a lifer, as it may be, you will never forget the distinct points about it - even if you hardly study it. It's called jizz, gizz, giss, gesalt, etc. That sharpens your IDing skills, and helps you help others. But just to see the bird to add it to a list - that's not so great. But then again, that's just becoming an encyclopedic bird brain, which isn't terrible is it?

Although I am not of age yet to do too much of working for the birds, I do what I can (donate, report to databases like Ebird, keep in touch with biologists) and I plan to work at some of my local parks when I come of age, and then hopefully become a biologist of some sort.

There is one thing I don't agree with Marcelo about though - I think the few people on this universe who have absolutely forgotten that birds need to be cared about and researched, but yearn for a humongous list have "better" places to be (Papua New Guinea comes to mind, let the cannibals have them) than in a community that cares so much like Birdforum.

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I keep a year list and a life list, the year list is very important for keeping tracks of the ups and downs of bird populations and the effect of the climate on migration, but don´t forget a copie for the local/county recorder!!. My life list is so I can see and remember when I saw a Bird, I always write down where and the circumstances when I saw a new bird, brings back many happy memorys when I read through my list!!.
I am also actively involved in conservation work, starting with controling and ringing Barn owls to helping clean out streams with the local wildlife protection orgs, and anything which crops up inbetween, so you see listing does not automaticly mean the lister has not got an interest in the wider issues.

What I do not understand dear birderbdf is your statement that you are not of age too do much working for the birds and when you come of age you will become a biologist of some sorts.

How old do you have to be to be "of age"? and as far as I understand to become a biologist you do have to study?.

Hi Marcelo,
Don't be influenced too much by the unfortunately perhaps too vocal but very slim minority of the inveterate "twitchers". By and large, BirdForum is populated by a great many people that though they may not put their heart on their sleeves as far as their own personal, usually silent, dedication of resources and free time to bird and habitat conservation, nonetheless are unswerving in this sense! I have seen many public fora and judge BirdForum certainly a cut above the normal as far as environmental awareness and simple knowledge and expertise.

What a great post. I'm pretty new to birding (about a year) so many birds are new to me and it's always fun to add a new one to my list. But I have feeders in my yard, and I'm so attached to my House Finches and their little families that my new hobby wouldn't be the same without them. I haven't met any "killer list" people yet, and I have joined my local Audubon Society, but maybe I just haven't noticed them. It's a good "heads up" that you've given to not loose site of the birds for the list. Is that like not seeing the forest for the trees?